Did you know it is illegal...

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Did you know it is illegal...

Postby mrsmaintenance » Fri Oct 05, 2007 9:17 am

...to charge a minimum or surcharge to use a credit or debit card?

You can totally report the businesses that do this.

Here's the form for MasterCard if you've been ass-raped by a business that charges a minimum or surcharge:
http://www.mastercard.com/us/personal/e ... tions.html

With VISA, you have to call
1-800-VISA-911

Just call me the consumer vigilante. There are a lot of little gas stations, hardware stores, and restaurants around here that try to make you have a minimum purchase. I won't stand for it. Even Dollar Tree tried that crap on me until I reported them. The hardware store took down their $5.00 minimum purchase sign after I reported them. I just did it to the agency that handled my student loans for charging me a $3 surcharge for using my credit card. (I'm now DEBT FREE, WOOHOO!!!)

Fuck these businesses that try to pass on THEIR costs to the consumer.
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Postby Isaac » Fri Oct 05, 2007 9:26 am

what the hell is wrong with charging a minimum? It's you who choses to use a fucking credit card.
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Postby mrsmaintenance » Fri Oct 05, 2007 9:41 am

They aren't supposed to do it. Period. Why should they be allowed to charge me more just because of my method of payment?
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Postby Isaac » Fri Oct 05, 2007 9:47 am

because the credit card company charges them.
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Postby mrsmaintenance » Fri Oct 05, 2007 9:55 am

So? It's still a violation of their Merchant Agreement to do so. And the fees charged to the business by the credit card company aren't as much as the minimum or surcharges that places charge to use the card.

Why should businesses be allowed to ass-rape the customer? The business has more money than the customer. They shouldn't be allowed to pass on THEIR charge to the customer. It's kind of like passing on YOUR Ebay fees to your buyer by charging inflated shipping, or stating in the auction that the buyer has to pay your ebay fees. That is also illegal.
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Postby mrsmaintenance » Fri Oct 05, 2007 9:56 am

Anyway, I wasn't asking for a debate. I was posting the info to those who can benefit from it.
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Postby 2tadpoles » Fri Oct 05, 2007 9:59 am

WTF is wrong with asking a cardholder for ID? According to that form, it's one of the violations....yet if you look elsewhere on their site and check out their merchant manual, it instructs merchants to ask for ID if the card isn't signed.

I agree that they shouldn't charge you a surcharge in order to use the card, but I don't see anything wrong with asking for a minimum purchase. Those small businesses are doing you a favor by accepting plastic. They could just as easily say "cash only."

On a tangent.....it's really fucking annoying when four businessmen come out to lunch and split their bill four ways with four credit cards. Of course, they usually use AmEx, too, which costs a small fortune to process. :roll:
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Postby Looksbothways » Fri Oct 05, 2007 10:01 am

I'm not sure I understand your bitterness Isaac.

The business benefits greatly from being allowed to accept credit card payments. They sign contracts with the credit card companies, with rules, one of which is that they may not demand a minimum payment amount or charge a surcharge. If they don't like the rules, they're free to not sign the contract and not accept credit card payments.

2tadpoles, they can't ask for ID if the card is signed. They can ask for ID if it isn't.

Yes, credit cards are convenient for customers, but accepting them is profitable for businesses because of how many people use them. It's not an altruistic "for the customer" thing. If it wasn't profitable for the business, they wouldn't do it.
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Postby mrsmaintenance » Fri Oct 05, 2007 10:08 am

If they don't want to pay the fee, then they shouldn't accept the cards. I would have no problem with that and would just take my business to a place that I can use my debit. Most people DON'T carry cash these days. If you think about it, it cost them more to take a check than it does to take cash as well. But they don't overcharge check-writing customers.
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Postby mrsmaintenance » Fri Oct 05, 2007 10:22 am

ALSO: If you use debit cards, always run your debit card as a credit card. That way, the store pays the fee, not you. If you run it as a debit card, you can sometimes be charged an ATM fee! Some store's systems will try to trick you into running it as a debit card by asking you to input your PIN. DON'T! Hit Cancel or Clear on the thingy. It will then run it as credit. If you run into problems ask the cashier to run it as credit. Better the store (who has more money than me) pay the fee, than me paying the fee!!! :devil1:
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Postby DaveBuck » Fri Oct 05, 2007 11:41 am

As the customer, you will always pay the surcharge, you just don't normally have it itemized (I guess that's illegal :roll: ).

The business needs $X to keep on trucking. They calculate how much to charge for their products so they can bring in $X. Credit Card fees they pay to card companies are just one of the many expenses they take into account for this equation.

Now, ask yourself this question. Is it more fair to pass on the credit card cost only to customers who use credit cards, or should everyone pay for it?

Insert any other type of cost where some customers utilize the costly service into this scenario and others don't and whether its fair to make everyone pay.
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Postby The Monkey » Fri Oct 05, 2007 11:50 am

Over here in the UK, banks are being over run with people demanding 6 years transaction statements, and reclaiming all the overdraft fees and penalty charges, as we (the consumers) have just found out that they ar illegal too. I got nearly a grand back from my bank ($2050).

Some banks dont pay up until you threaten with small claims court, one bank actually pursued their claim until the bailifs were sent into a branch..I kid you not. Wonder if the same applies over there?

it was all started by this website
http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/reclaim/bank-charges

it also includes credit cards and mortgage fees.

worth looking into me thinks.
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Postby mrsmaintenance » Fri Oct 05, 2007 11:52 am

Just go right on defending the businesses...give them ALL the leeway... :roll:
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Postby DaveBuck » Fri Oct 05, 2007 12:22 pm

mrsmaintenance wrote:Just go right on defending the businesses...give them ALL the leeway... :roll:


I'm not defending businesses at all.

They have a set number of expenses (lights, water, salaries, taxes, credit card fees, postage, shipping, gas, etc...). They have to figure in total costs to deterimine prices. Those credit card fees are part of the whole. So, they also drive costs.

You can handle costs one of two ways: You can spread them out indiscriminately across all products, or you can partial them out and pass them only along to certain customers. It makes sense to make everyone pay for lights, electricity, and stuff like that. But, maybe any costs associated with coupons or rebates (postage or I don't know what) should be pass on just to those customers. Why should other people subsidize my coupon habit when they never use them?

Same for credit cards. Some people cut theirs up and that works for them. Why should they subsidize the costs that allow me to use my credit card?

I think what you're hung up on is that you think the business should pay those costs. But that's not how it works. They do pay them but they have to recoup money to pay them. They recoup money by increasing the price of their goods and services.

That is, every single cost, by definition is paid by customers. What's the fairest way to do this though?
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Postby Isaac » Fri Oct 05, 2007 12:25 pm

DaveBuck wrote:... But, maybe any costs associated with coupons or rebates (postage or I don't know what) should be pass on just to those customers. Why should other people subsidize my coupon habit when they never use them?


if the people not using coupons where not subsidizing your coupon use, wouldn't the store have to decrease the discount given in coupons.....
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Postby mrsmaintenance » Fri Oct 05, 2007 12:47 pm

The point is they need to follow the rules. If you don't like the fact that they can't charge a minimum, perhaps you should write to the credit card companies and insist that they make that allowance.
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Postby DaveBuck » Fri Oct 05, 2007 12:52 pm

Isaac wrote:
DaveBuck wrote:... But, maybe any costs associated with coupons or rebates (postage or I don't know what) should be pass on just to those customers. Why should other people subsidize my coupon habit when they never use them?


if the people not using coupons where not subsidizing your coupon use, wouldn't the store have to decrease the discount given in coupons.....


Sure! Let's say that Coupon Processing Expenses end up costing a total of .5% of Kroger's overall expences. I see it as more fair to pass on that .5% cost to me and other coupon users rather than to ever single customer.

I can then weigh that additional cost to my personal cost/benefit analysis and decide whether I want to continue to keep using coupons. But, to weigh this cost, I'd like to see it appear on my bill. Same for credit card expenses. Could I save money by not using a credit card? I don't know unless they seperated out those costs and applied them to people who are using the cards.

Even though this would have a negative effect on me, I believe it is the fair thing to do from a consumer point of view. Transparency is preferred!
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Postby DaveBuck » Fri Oct 05, 2007 12:56 pm

mrsmaintenance wrote:The point is they need to follow the rules. If you don't like the fact that they can't charge a minimum, perhaps you should write to the credit card companies and insist that they make that allowance.


Hmmm, I should.

As you can see, it's in their best interest that these costs stay hidden from credit card users. If consumers found out how much credit cards inflates the cost of goods, people might shy away from credit cards. And, think of who this effects the most; the poor who don't have credit cards and are trying to build up wealth (or pay down debt). They're subsidizing everyone else's credit card use.
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Postby Looksbothways » Fri Oct 05, 2007 12:59 pm

Whether the fees should be dispersed to everyone or charged straight to credit card users is absolutely irrelevant to the point of this thread. The business owners sign a contract stating that they will and will not do certain things with regards to accepting credit cards. One of the things they agree to is that they will not set a minimum order nor charge a surcharge for credit card purchases.

If they don't like the contract they can most certainly take it up with the credit card companies, but they can't arbitrarily decide they don't like the terms and ignore them.
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Postby Office_Shredder » Fri Oct 05, 2007 1:00 pm

DaveBuck wrote:Sure! Let's say that Coupon Processing Expenses end up costing a total of .5% of Kroger's overall expences. I see it as more fair to pass on that .5% cost to me and other coupon users rather than to ever single customer.

I can then weigh that additional cost to my personal cost/benefit analysis and decide whether I want to continue to keep using coupons. But, to weigh this cost, I'd like to see it appear on my bill. Same for credit card expenses. Could I save money by not using a credit card? I don't know unless they seperated out those costs and applied them to people who are using the cards.

Even though this would have a negative effect on me, I believe it is the fair thing to do from a consumer point of view. Transparency is preferred!


Dave this makes no sense... the point of a coupon is that you save the amount written on the coupon. They're not going to charge you for using that coupon, rather, they'd simply have the coupon cut the cost less in the first place.

Also, the coupon analogy is like saying if McDonald's has an advertising campaign targetted at Mexicans, the price for Mexicans at McDonald's should go up
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Postby mrsmaintenance » Fri Oct 05, 2007 1:00 pm

We're sort of "poor" but it's debit cards we're using. That work as credit cards. :lol:

And perhaps they should charge check-writers a fee too. It costs them more than straight cash, does it not?
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Postby mrsmaintenance » Fri Oct 05, 2007 1:19 pm

I guess I've become more of a vigilante about this simply because of an experience I had recently.

My car had broken down, in the rain, and my two-year-old was with me. We walked to a nearby gas station so that I could get him some food. I went to buy him a cereal bar and a juice box, and they refused to sell that to me because it didn't meet their arbitrary minimum of $5. In other words, they would rather DENY FOOD TO A BABY than lose $0.25. THAT pissed me off.
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Postby DaveBuck » Fri Oct 05, 2007 1:33 pm

Office_Shredder wrote:
DaveBuck wrote:Sure! Let's say that Coupon Processing Expenses end up costing a total of .5% of Kroger's overall expences. I see it as more fair to pass on that .5% cost to me and other coupon users rather than to ever single customer.

I can then weigh that additional cost to my personal cost/benefit analysis and decide whether I want to continue to keep using coupons. But, to weigh this cost, I'd like to see it appear on my bill. Same for credit card expenses. Could I save money by not using a credit card? I don't know unless they seperated out those costs and applied them to people who are using the cards.

Even though this would have a negative effect on me, I believe it is the fair thing to do from a consumer point of view. Transparency is preferred!


Dave this makes no sense... the point of a coupon is that you save the amount written on the coupon. They're not going to charge you for using that coupon, rather, they'd simply have the coupon cut the cost less in the first place.


The essential purpose of a coupon is to increase sales of a particular product. A business would not use coupons if it didn't somehow generate more sales. On top of that, if sales of a product are not slumping, then there is no need to issue coupons.

Consumers take advantage of coupons and save money. Business benefit because they increase sales that they otherwise would not have had.

I assume Krogers is forced to honor coupons and has some expense associated with this task (mailing coupons in or something like that).

Of course, Kroger must benefit some way because of increased sales. So, perhaps they take the money directly generated from increased sales of couponed items and earmark that or a portion of that to pay for coupon processing expenses. If that's the case, then the cost is being passed on mostly to coupon users I guess.

But, more to what I think your real point is, Imagine if this Coupon Processing fee was very high. To cover it, Kroger would have to raise prices significantly. Surely the coupon savings would out weigh this cost so people wouldn't stop using coupons. But, part of everyone's bill is going to pay this fee, regardless of whether they use coupons or not.

I would not look down on a business that tried to make this more fair by moving most or all of this cost over to coupon users.
Office_Shredder wrote:Also, the coupon analogy is like saying if McDonald's has an advertising campaign targetted at Mexicans, the price for Mexicans at McDonald's should go up


mmmm. Very good point. Advertising is another business expense and every consumer foots the bill. Targeted advertising causes the cost of the product to go up for everyone. The consumer doesn't win.

Not sure what to do here. I hate when companies over-advertise. I try, if possible, to find companies who spend less on advertising and pass the savings on to me. That's about all I think we can do on that point.

W/r/t credit card costs, do you think it is more fair if credit card users pay the bulk of the card-usage fees or do you think that cost should be spread equally among all consumers?
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Postby DaveBuck » Fri Oct 05, 2007 1:35 pm

mrsmaintenance wrote:I guess I've become more of a vigilante about this simply because of an experience I had recently.

My car had broken down, in the rain, and my two-year-old was with me. We walked to a nearby gas station so that I could get him some food. I went to buy him a cereal bar and a juice box, and they refused to sell that to me because it didn't meet their arbitrary minimum of $5. In other words, they would rather DENY FOOD TO A BABY than lose $0.25. THAT pissed me off.


Man, that does suck. I think the business owner should make the exception in that case.

But, I still like the idea of passing on those sometimes very large costs to the credit card users. Why should a poor person paying with cash have to pay extra just to cover the cost of you using your credit card?
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Postby DaveBuck » Fri Oct 05, 2007 1:41 pm

mrsmaintenance wrote:And perhaps they should charge check-writers a fee too. It costs them more than straight cash, does it not?


If it does, I agree.

My guess they wouldn't do this because it would hurt business. As a result, people who pay with cash pay a litte more to cover the costs of processing checks.

Maybe in most cases all these costs are tiny so it isn't worth the trouble partialling it out.

But, I keep wondering if there is some $.50 minimum charge that credit card companies charge a business per transaction. If it is, then a store selling a $.50 candy bar can either charge the credit card user $1.00. Or, let's say 9 out of 10 people tend to pay cash, they'd have to charge an extra $.05 per candy bar to recoup the loss.

Those costs add up and over a year, how much extra does a cash-paying person pay for a service they don't use?
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