For all of you who wish us an eternity of burning in hell or have some sort of threat, place your comments below.
We love to read your messages about why your god is the only true and really magical one.
Remember, only here are believers in the different gods allowed to express their views openly. Just be aware this is an atheist and anti-theist web site and you may not like our answers!
Write a comment
randy (Tuesday, 17 January 2012 17:04)
good title!
True Believer (Monday, 27 February 2012 21:20)
But the Flying Spaghetti Monster IS the one true god. Obviously, pasta and everything else wouldn't exist at all if weren't for our holy meatball Creator.
Dave (Thursday, 29 March 2012 21:25)
I know, not the place for this, but... Im the son of a faith driven man. Im a very sarcastic person, which I see as the effect of his life full of contradiction. I was raised in his faith, and have grown weary of hearing of miracles where I see cause and effect. I dont yet have the conviction to believe there is no 'grand-architect' but if there is I dont think it plays a role in our universe. I love logos, and worship at the altar of Reason. I want to raise my son (1st, 8 months, wow) encouraging his true freedom of thought, avoid sexual repression, and see him live a life of achievement without having to give the glory some deity who wills it. I want his successes and failures to be his own. This I could never share with my father, I can deal with that turmoil, but dont want my son to have to. I sat down to read a book of fairy tales to my boy, and it occurred to me that this encourages Mysticism and mysitcal belief. Can anyone point me in the direction of tales of ethics for kids that doesn't use magic?
Shaun (Monday, 11 June 2012 23:41)
@Dave-I too, grew up with a parent of faith. I've never full on confronted my mother about it, but she knows I don't believe. Anyway, I just wanted to say, don't worry about reading your son fairy tales or stories with magic. These will not encourage belief in these things. No more than seeing two men kissing, will make him gay, or playing Call of Duty will make him a killing machine. Draw a firm line between fantasy and reality. Keeping him from these things because you think he might become something undesirable is as ridiculous as fundamentalist Christians believing Harry Potter promotes witchcraft. You're good, man.
Stephanie (Sunday, 22 July 2012 01:24)
Dave,
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don't banish Harry Potter or The Hobbit or Lord of the Rings and everything amazing about childhood. Those books are sooooo good. :)
Sarah (Sunday, 29 July 2012 08:37)
I am a woman of faith myself raised in a Godless family. I found Christ as my savior late in my 20's. My intention is not to send a message of hate instead I would like to say, as a Christian, I'm sorry. I'm sorry if you have even been offended by a Christian, Muslim, or any other person of faith. I'm sorry if you are or ever were judged by another person of this earth for your lifestyle, parenting or anything else. However one thing I found surprising is the intolerance you have been embracing on your page, as well as the ability to label all people of faith as the same. Yes, there are extremists in any faith but there are also people of faith who genuinely care about the well being of EVERY man woman and child just as the people on your site do. I understand it is easy to get defensive when you are in the minority among society, but if religious tolerance were to be embraced on your behalf I think your reputation as a whole would be a lot more positive. Im speaking this through personal experience. For a long time my family shunned me after I started following Christ, and only saw me as a naive, uneducated, nut, ... To put it nicely. They would become very angry if I even said the words " church " or " God" around them, which of course was very hard to manage. It is only now after 4 years that they are seeing my joy in faith and in humanity as a whole that they are starting to be okay with my life choices. I guess that is just the message I would like to send out to anyone who wants to hear it. I know not all atheists are bad people, but could any of you stand up to accept that not all Christians or " theist" are hell raising nut cases?
Jason (Sunday, 29 July 2012 15:17)
@Sarah:
Sarah I was just wondering how you found this web site? You must have put into your search engine "Atheist Parenting" to find it which means you were looking for alternatives to Christian Parenting. To come to an atheist site and preach that you found Jesus (where did you find him under the rug? behind the stove? please clarify, we are atheists, we like to know details). Yes, atheist are offended by all religions because we are forced to tolerate your intolerance. Look, either the bible is true or it isnt, either the world is 6000 years old snakes and donkeys can talk, or we evolved from apes. You dont get one and the other. So yes atheist have a problem with your god killing millions of people, allowing for the rape of children and the theft of property because others dont believe in the same god as you do. I was just wondering, what why do you label yourself an uneducated nut? Because you believe the story of Noahs arc? Because you think snakes can talk and that someone in the sky is watching you and cares about you more then the starving african child who's mothers is being raped in the name of the lord? All religion is bad, there is nothing good in it. I was just wondering if you knew according to your bible how many people the devil killed? Well Ill save you the research, it is 10, and only because god dared him, this is what you believe in, this guides you morally? You dont need a god to be a good person, but for some reason believing in him makes you feel better, good for you, but you need him because something in your life is missing. An atheist doesnt need to believe in the pot at the end of the rainbow, we live in the here and now and dont wish for a better next life, we use the only one we have to make a difference. So you go back to Jesus and your talking snakes and your 6000 year old earth, and we will just go on making fun of you, because you are an adult who still believes in the easter bunny, santa claus, unicorns, and elves, because it is the same thing as Jesus.
Sarah (Sunday, 29 July 2012 20:28)
I'm a curious person, my brother is having a child and I was wondering what morals atheists raise there children with. I do not expect you to believe my beliefs anymore than you should expect me to believe yours. Just offering up a challenge of tolerance ( something people are so desperately searching for in all aspects of life these days) and seeing if anyone could rise to the occasion. Which obviously is something you cannot, Jason. However I will be patient to be proven wrong.
Keith (Monday, 30 July 2012 09:22)
@Sarah: To ask what morals atheists have to raise their kids is like having Hitler ask Ghandi what his views are on being a vegetarian. Religions like yours which propagate hate, child abuse, rape, slavery, and geonocide are not tolerant, Jesus wasnt tolerant, and you are not tolerant because you believe in the teachings of the bible and Jesus! I was just wondering what morals you raise your children with? That homosexuality is wrong? That women are not as good as men? That you can do anything you want to anyone at anytime, rape, kill or steal but just ask for forgiveness from Jesus and accept him as your saviour before you die and you got a ticket to heaven. Do you teach your children that although an atheist may be a good person, give to charity, help others in need, no matter what he or she does they will burn in hell for all eternity along side Ghandi because we dont want to believe in your fairy tales? Please let us know which moral code you follow? I agree with Jason, why should we be forced to tolerate your religions intolerance?
Sarah (Monday, 30 July 2012 20:48)
Well I wouldn't dare tell anyone they are going to hell. The thought doesn't cross my mind. As far as my morals I can assure you they are the same as yours, the only difference being I will allow my children to choose their own truth about God.
Keith (Tuesday, 31 July 2012 15:56)
Sarah, that is the point you don't have to teach it but your bible and does and so does Jesus, and the thought that you let your children decide on their own if geonocide, rape, and child abuse is OK, that your God is nothing more then excuse to do unto other as a people wish to is absolutely sick. Yes an atheist does teach their children both sides of the story. You do not That, my friend is imoral? Maybe you should just teach your children about all the good things Hitler did and then let them decide on their own if he was a nice guy or not, you wouldn't do that would you?
Sarah (Wednesday, 01 August 2012 07:51)
Well I am a little bit let down by how uneducated you all are about the Christian religion. The Old Testament was very brutal, which is where you are getting most of your information from (surprising considering none of you "believe" in the teachings of the bible). The New Testament is the most important for the Christian faith .. Because .. Well Christ is born. :) There are many people that kill, rape and steal in the name of their Lord. There are also people that do these things , because they do not think there are consequences for them after death Or, just because. This is MANS downfall ... Not Gods.
Nevertheless I come back to my original posting. Extreme Christians can be intolerant of other religions, it has caused wars and hate spread across the world. HOWEVER I don't believe adding another "ism" on top of all the others to spread the message of " your wrong and I'm right" is really going to help our world evolve into the peaceful happy planet we all want. I can see already I'm not going to get the proof I want here. This is a small site with few opinions, I will be taking my search for a single tolerant atheist elsewhere. I really hope you all find peace in your lives. Have a really good day!
Keith (Wednesday, 01 August 2012 10:30)
First of all I am incredibly educated about your cult and the teaching of your cult leader. I am also fully aware of the lies and the insanity in the new testament as well. Your cult leader said the only way to paradise is through him not through your actions on this earth.“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast”.Ephesians 2:8-9. Do you teach your kids that little gem? how about “If you confess with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord’, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved…. Unless you repent you will all likewise perish” Romans 10:9. So I dont believe that, what is my punishment then, this is what you believe? Your cult is nothing more then the mafia, if I dont do something, then bad things are going to happen to me, this is called extortion, you call it love from Jesus. That is really sick. Why don't you actually read the words the old testiment is full of suffering, geonocide, rape, murder, child abuse dictated by your god and the new testiment is full threats. If you find a tollerant atheist you have found an agnostic, there will be no peace on the planet until ALL religions are treated like those of the ancient Greeks and Egyptians ( Have you ever read about The God Horus of Egypt? Guess what he was born of on dec 25th to a virgin mother, walked on water, performed miracles, had 12 disciples, died, was reserected three days later, and went to heaven... sound familiar?)
Jon (Wednesday, 29 August 2012 23:33)
Sorry you have been treated so poorly here Sarah. I am an agnostic theist, always interested in other points of view. You came here offering peace and were greeted with intolerance and hate. Sarah, if you revisit this page, just know that your words have inspired me. I cannot refrain from my more humanly instincts as you Sarah, so I will call these fools as I see them. Hateful, intolerant bigots. They have become what they so proclaim to be against.
William (Thursday, 30 August 2012 08:27)
@Jon Wow an Agnostic Theist? That is a good one! I was just wondering why christians and muslims expect atheists to tolerate their religious intolerance? If someone was handing out "Meine Kampf" on the street corner claiming it is just another "ism" and teaching kids that there may be some bad parts in it, but there are also some good parts and you could learn from it, I would stand up and say something! It sounds to me Jon like you would carefully read the text and chose which parts were good and bad and then call other people ignorant for failing to understand someone elses point of view. All religions and their books propogate hate and to teach children just the "good" parts is insanity. Just because someone stands up against intolerance, violence gainst women, rape, slavery, and geonocide doesnt make them a hateful bigot it makes them right!
Sarah (Saturday, 08 September 2012 22:28)
Thank you Jon, I really appreciate your acknowledgment. I also understand your "humanly instincts", I can't exactly say I do not have them but I am trying to change them through God. Of course I come back to check on these people, and pray for them (I hesitate saying that because I know most of you will take it as an offense but it really truly isn't, and I apologize if you take it that way). As for William, Insanity was once quoted as "Trying the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." by Albert Einstein. As a follower of Christs' ideals I have learned through not only the Bible but through history books that religious intolerance has lead to nothing but hate mongering and disaster in the past. That being said, when asked if an Atheist would change their perception of a believer to not hate but to tolerate, wouldn't it be rather...logical that an Atheist could defer from this path more easily than a person of faith, seeing as how they stand for the belief in absolutely nothing? Or are they just as doomed to repeat history like the rest of the religious sectors they preach against.
William (Sunday, 09 September 2012 10:55)
You chrisitans are so funny, you come to an atheist web site, where people dont believe in your fairy tales and magic stories, you leave comments and you expect tolerance? What do you want us to tolerate? Bigotry? Misogyny? There is nothing in the teachings of your little book of fairy tales that is tolerant, nothing! Jesus was a bigot and he taught hate and worst of all he threatened people like me who did not or do not believe that he was like Apollo or Joseph Smith or the rev. Moon. Seriously, you do not know history, your little book of fairy tales has been proven so wrong historically and is one of those most hateful peices of literature ever assembled. If you are looking to that book for moral guidence you require serious help. I still don't understand why we should tolerate your intolerance? What are your little books views on Homosexuality? Should I tolerate that? What is your little book's views on the rape of women? Geonocide? Thought crimes (thou shall not covet)? We don't hate you, atheists simpley are not going to tolerate your intolerance anymore and we are going to stand up for what is right. I would have said something in 1939 in Germany what would you have done, would you have tolerated it? Anyone preaching hate or extortion (ie. do this or something bad will happen to you) should not be tolerated by society, atheist or believers. You should actually step back and look at your religious cult for what it truly is.
Graham S. (Saturday, 22 September 2012 03:12)
Sarah,
I am curious to know how you mean to achieve this: "I will allow my children to choose their own truth about God."
To give a child the opportunity to discover the world for him or her self is precious and the parents who strive for it with sincerity are worthy of praise.
Does the willingness to allow your children to discover their "own truth about God" include the possibility of disbelief? If so, you may be among a minority of religious parents who recognize the vulnerability of a child's mind to indoctrination and thus choose not to take advantage of that fact.
How do you intend to accomplish this given that Christianity contains - at its core - beliefs about the world and our place in it that are necessarily divisive?
Sarah (Wednesday, 26 September 2012 09:20)
Graham: Yes I suppose I am among the minority. There is a small group of Christians who believe more than following a religion, church, or pastor etc. it's more important to persue an intimate relationship with The Trinity.
As everyone knows you can't make someone love some body. Just as no one has converted to Christianity over losing an argument. The best thing we can do is lead by example. I did make a promise to teach my children about Jesus Christ, and of course they come to church with us 3x a week. However if they ever come to me and tell me they don't want to go, of course I won't make them. If my child ever wants to learn about a different religion, I will be happy to take them to a library to learn about the different kinds.
I will admit I will be disappointed but I think God reveals himself to everyone in time. I just pray my children will have the ability to keep an open mind. No, not so they will keep believing in Santa but so they can maybe believe in more than coincidences, so they can listen to that gut instinct that's guiding them, so they can feel someone's presence in an empty room and know its not always just their body responding to some environmental phenomenon.
Children that are uneducated about God may be natural born atheists but I guarantee they are willing to admit there is more to the world around us then what meets the eye or even more than what science tells us.
Lance (Wednesday, 26 September 2012 10:03)
Sarah, you need to grow up. There are no magical people controlling your life and you are doing nothing more then indoctrinating your children 3 times a week to be ignorant. Definately teach your children about Jesus Christ and the mafia-like extortionist he was (Romans 10:9) If you confess with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord’, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved…. Unless you repent you will all likewise perish. So if they don't believe you magical stories they will go to hell right, eternal punishment? What would you call that other then extortion? If you don't do what I say something bad will happen to you. What a nice guy that Jesus was. Do you have daughters? Do you teach them to shut their mouths and dont ask question? I Corinthians 14:34-35 As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission as the law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.
You see the problem is, you and your pastor are not going to teach them all the shitty parts in the bible are you? Are you going to teach your kids with the bible that your god killed millions of people (the devil only killed 7 by the way and only because god made a bet with him) are you going to show your children and talk to them about rape, having slaves, geonocide, misogany, child abuse? You see you are not going to give your kids the whole story are you? Because you know the minute you do, they will run. Are you going to try and tell your kids the earth is only 6000 years old that Noah had an arc, that snakes and donkeys can talk? You see either the stories in the bible are true or they are not, which ones do you think you and your church get to chose are true and which ones are fables? Trust me, atheist children are incredibly educated about your cult, cult leader and your fairy tales, and you know that you are hidding the dark truth from your children about what you book actually says. What is it that you have done that is so bad in this life that you think you need another one? Your god has been reduced by science to a little dot called the big bang, which means the earth is NOT 6000 years old, snakes cannot talk, Jesus wasnt born from a virgin, he wasnt even born in Bethleham and definately not on December 25th, he didnt walk on water, and was nothing more then a Joseph Smith, rev. Moon, Hitler, Tony, or L.Ron Hubbard. Yes teach your kids the truth, teach them about religion.
Coryn (Sunday, 30 September 2012 05:42)
Sarah
I applaud your efforts to be open minded in allowing your children to have their own minds. I would think that would be very hard as a christian. I know my mother feels that she needs to convert me and save my children, however I was indoctrinated as a child and I educated myself, and veered away from it after enough searching for what it was I really felt was true.
I think that is the only true way to present it to children. However, there are many many subjects in the bible that are very hard to verify as true, so do you plan to teach them that the bible is only partly true? Or that is is only a metaphor and that only the meaning behind the words is true? Or that it was written in a time that wasn't this one and so most of it isn't true, but that there are a few good things that can be followed? That seems really illogical to me, and I am not sarcastically asking, I am genuinely interested. Why would you want to teach young impressionable children some of the things in the bible? Do you have daughters? Would you have them be silent as the bible teaches? Will you teach them that it is okay to kill others who do not share the same beliefs as the bible teaches in Deuteronomy?
I personally don't think it is an effective teaching tool, honestly. I think that we can teach our kids to be good without god. We can see by common sense that when we hit people for example, it hurts them and is not a kind thing, and shouldn't be done. I teach my kids logical consequences for this type of thing are that people you hit won't want to be around you if you hit them, so it isn't a good choice to make. It seems simple, but it is what kids really need to see-that consequences will impose themselves when we make bad choices but that we are responsible for making the choices, not anyone else. Sometimes, consequences come later on, sometimes they come right away, like getting sent to the office at school for hitting, for example, but they will come. Bad choices will bring about consequences that we may not want to face but they are of our own doing. Another thing I teach my girls is that we make choices and so do others and just like we can't change how they act or believe, neither can they change how we act or believe and that others can have different opinions, beliefs, and that is ok as long as we are kind to each other. We don't need to force other to believe the same way as us. If they ask questions, that is ok. We can answer them, but it isn't our job to change everyone.
Cassandra c. (Wednesday, 19 December 2012 23:03)
What If....????
If there is no God OR Jesus......How do we explain the 100ths of thousandths of events... spiritual and demonic, that are witnessed by millions...Also, How do we explain the 100ths of recorded instances where children's hearts stopped beating on operating tables and they were medically brought back to life, only to describe events, places, aborted/miscarried siblings etc. after their near death experiences. How do we explain...the thousandths of cases world wide that happened during prayer to Jesus....where cripple people have walked, blind people have began to see, the deaf to hear, eyes grew into empty sockets etc......Its a Fact ..... things like this have been well documented/and even witnessed by many (no-believers) time and time again........Please try and understand that... we can"t .... really blame the Lord for bad things that happen.... bad people choose to do bad things.....JESUS/GOD Controls the Universe and intervenes when called through faith and when its time to avenge on our behalf.......His degree of intervention depends on how innocent, and how close we are in our relationship to him .....it all depends upon your relationship with him, which is based on trust....children cling to a parent because it feels safe....and there is a feeling ....of trust.........The best explanation of how a relationship with God/Jesus works....is to compare it with that of a relationship between a parent and a child.......Keep in mind that parents who have many children usually love them all, but in different ways and the parents may have better or no relationships with some of them........Also, some children don't believe its beneficial to have a relationship with their Father and or Mother....Parents are earthly and no matter how much that love us ...they can not give us eternal life...........Also parents are not perfect themselves and that is why children die at the hands of good parents and not just people who are evil.. ...FREE WILL".......Yes..."God or no God....we are all human..... bad things happen to good people every day...because of a thing called "Cause and Effect".....Consequently, the innocent will die, the good will have hard times......Take note that when the innocent die, they go to be with God/Jesus for eternal life ...and its the ones left behind that cry and suffer........Nevertheless...my fellow human......From your point of view....What do you have to loose"......I invite you to at least give him(God/Jesus another/first try......"Say Jesus,if you are real, give me a sign, but you have to really want to know in your heart of hearts if God/Jesus is real...give it 30 days....or so....you will know when the sign comes, don't you think that you at least owe it to yourself.....We love our kids therefore We try to provide the best we know how for them, we pick the best foods,the best schools and the safest automobiles....We also tell our kids not to be with bad people.......why not make sure you are taking the best route for you and those you care about....."What do you Have to loose"??????......And last but not least.....No one has ever Scientifically proven any part of the Bible to be wrong yet....But What, just what if you are wrong... it will be an eternal mistake for you and your children...."Put Fear aside and give it a try......May the Lord have mercy on us all.
Cassandra c. (Wednesday, 19 December 2012 23:11)
If you are true to your supporters and doctrine of Non- Belief ..why are you afraid to publish my request for them to try the Lord and see if it works....I Love you and so does the Lord Jesus....
Love Cassandra C.
P.S. If I am blocked may you find Christ and lead others to him.
Chloe (Thursday, 20 December 2012 06:07)
@Cassandra
Can you please post some valid and confirmed links of said occasions?
I have not one time in my 30 years of life seen or heard of any of your "recorded instances".
Lance Gregorchuk (Thursday, 20 December 2012 09:08)
@Cassandra: It is so nice to see that you spend your days hanging around atheist websites preaching your hate. So let me just clear up a few things, Ill try to make it fast. I worked with Uri Geller for years. He used to get people to sit infront of their TV's and get a broken watch and he would repair them with their minds, I guess you would think he was some kind of god too right? Also, the next time you come to the site please come with facts and not made up stuff like prayer works, since it has been proven NOT to work. Infact all the independent studies (not the ones from your church) show that it actually causes more harm... Furthermore, the bible has been proven to be false all over the place Hmmm where to begin: The earth is not 6000 years old, there was no Garden of Eden or Adam and Eve, Jesus wasnt born in Bethlehem, there was no Roman census, Moses didnt walk for 40 years in the desert etc etc. Also when the innocent die, they don't go to heaven. Please show me in the bible where it says that, because it says the ONLY way to get into heaven is to accept Jesus as your saviour(Romans 10:9), that is it... nothing else. Read your bible! Also you are not getting in if you shave the hair around your temples, if you are gay, if you wear glasses, if you wish you had a car like your neighbours (remember: do not covet! Google what it means!)If you draw pictures of heaven, if you pray in a church, if you like to do magic tricks etc. etc. Atheist chose to live in this world and love it, we know we only have one life and so we do everything to enjoy it this only one we have, we know there is no second one. You on the other hand must think that there is something better waiting for you... there isnt, you are waisting your time when you could be helping people, not by praying for them, but by helping them. Atheist do nice things because they are nice to do, we are charitable not because we think we will get some reward at the end of the line, we do it because it is right. You do it because you think you get points. Finally, I would like to comment on what you said at the end "it will be an eternal mistake for you and your children". Guess what... that is extortion, that is a threat, you are threatening my children, my... what did you call them... "innocent" children with an eternity of hell and you are threatening other non believers as well with pain and suffering if we don't do what you want. This is what you teach your children? That if you threaten people with a real or perceived fear they will do what you want? I think that is really sick and I dont want the love of that kind of sick person who wishes pain and suffering upon others if they dont do what you say. It is not about what we have to lose, it is about what you have to gain by being an atheist, it is like being the sober one at a drunks party, the drunks think they are funny and witty and sexy...guess what...They're not.
Sara (Saturday, 22 December 2012 07:14)
I feel so fortunate to have stumbled upon this gem, and it should be obvious to anyone reading all of this that what atheists aren't tolerant of is Christians being intolerant. Some of these people have preached tolerance and, on the same note, have said that atheists can't be tolerated if they choose not to believe in god(s). They're asking atheists to tolerate Christians teaching their children about Christianity, but I wonder how many of them would be tolerant enough of atheists to let one teach their child about a wonderful life *without* god(s) in it.
Also, I think there's an interesting part of something Sarah said that hasn't been pointed out, and I think it's worth addressing. If you're still reading this, Sarah, I'm genuinely interested in knowing your experience. You said you came across this website because your brother is having a baby and you were curious as to what morals atheists raise their children with. I guessed you were asking because you don't know how people could raise moral children without God; you're not sure where the moral teachings would come from if not from the Bible. But then I remembered you said earlier that that you are a woman of faith who was raised in a godless family and didn't find Jesus until your late twenties. So, I'm wondering why you're asking that question if you know the answer. What morals did your parents raise you with? What code did you live by until you found Jesus and where did you learn it from?
I have my suspicions that maybe you misrepresented yourself in saying you were raised by a godless family in order to set up this idea that atheists and religious people are equally intolerant. "For a long time my family shunned me after I started following Christ...they would become very angry if I even said the words 'church' or 'God' around them". I'm sorry, but that sounds a little dramatic and it sounds like you embellished to set up your case against atheists. Please tell me if I'm wrong, and please tell me what moral code you were brought up with. Or maybe you're implying you had no morals before you were 30?
Adrian (Thursday, 03 January 2013 21:21)
@Sarah
I have read the majority of your comments and I would like to send some thoughts your way (not everything I say is negative btw so try to read it all).
1. You came to an atheist website (which that alone will get people ranting at you) and you made a couple propositions that point out some of the things we atheists hate most. You said, "I was wondering what morals atheists raise there(sic) children with." This stance, whether intended or not, paints you as a person who believes morals come from religion, not from instinct and society. I've never ever believed in a deity, and I've always been kind and compassionate. The other thing that you said that stood out to me was, "I know not all atheists are bad people." Again, whether you intended to or not, you are taking a negative stance. You are implying that a "good" atheist is rare. If you wanted to look at us as equals you would have said, "I know atheists are not bad people." So yes, you are going to get hated on because a) people get defensive in general and b) you are obviously approaching us with the belief that your way of living is better than ours.
2. Yes, getting prayed for pisses us off a bit. Would you like it if some lava worshipper pitied you and your confused existence so at night they pressed their naked ear against the cold dirt and whispered to the all knowing lava about you? Praying for people because they don't follow your religion is a condescending action.
3. I try to be sympathetic and empathetic when I can. So I do understand where you are coming from. I understand in your belief system you are told that people who do not accept christ go to hell. I understand that from your perspective you are trying to be kind with your desire to "save" others. I get it. I am sad that you have been tricked into this belief, but I get why you do what you do.
4. I also understand your desire for there to be a god. I know it must be very comforting "knowing" what you know. I would love to "know" that as well. I really would. Humans almost universally do 2 things: Stem a belief to thwart their fear of death. And try to understand as much as possible about existence/nature, even if it means making shi* up.
5. While I understand the deitys born from 4. I do not understand actually being truly religious to a modern religion. If you do not see the contradictions and the obvious underlying quest for power, then you have not learned all there is to know about your religion. I think it's perfectly human to want there to be god(s). I however, think following today's theistic religions is a bit silly. I understand people want to be part of a community and such, but if you would allow yourself to think critically instead of blindly following, you could at least maintain your reasoning.
6. I am very tolerant of religion people. I've been raised around religious, most of my friends are religious. People are people. Religion is just another character quirk or flaw in my opinion. But you can't control others. So you accept them. That being said, having religious debates is another story, because for an atheist to be honest, that means critically ripping apart religion. This is honesty, not hate. If you don't want this honesty, don't bring up religion with an Atheist.
Sarah (Thursday, 10 January 2013 09:46)
Oh my loved ones where to begin? I guess I'll just start off with some questions I've been avoiding, for no particular reason other than I haven't had time.
This is just me speaking on behalf of my ideals, keep in mind I know not everyone thinks as I do, but nevertheless these questions are directed at me, so here goes:
I do intend to teach my children all parts of the bible as they are all relevant in the history of God. I do fear God as I feared my fathers punishment the first time I brought home a B on my report card, no more no less.
Romans 10:9, yes I do believe this verse holds the key to the kingdom of heaven. But what is so unbelievable? It seems pretty reasonable to me? If God had said you have to climb the tallest mountain in the world in order to be saved, would that have been more acceptable? And who is to say that we don't get to answer that question in our final hour our perhaps even after our final hour. The thief that got crucified with Jesus was promised into heaven, though he had only come to that realization on his death bed. Also to Lance, since announcing that Christ is Lord is the only necessity to our salvation doesn't that imply that our good deeds carry the same motive as yours?
Sara- I apologize if my brevity in explaining my situation brought any doubts to your mind about my testimony. I was raised Godless maybe not exactly Atheist because that term was not really all that popular back in my day. But rather if God was brought up or asked about my parents pretty much avoided the conversation like the plague. And yes my question was redundant I guess. I was raised with one basic rule, if you wouldn't want it to happen to you, don't do it to anyone else ( funny because thats in the bible as well, although I didn't know that at the time) other than that I don't really remember to my knowledge. But I didn't have a problem questioning my morals until I was a teenager, wherein my parents only dealt with me on a case-by-case basis. And if you were to ask any Christian previously from a non Christian family I can almost guarantee it is the people closest to them that were the most offended by their new found spirituality, I don't know why but thats the way it is, so much so that I was "warned" beforehand to "ease" my family into my new found salvation.
@Adrian I really appreciate the tone of your post, lets just say its quite a bit of fresh air.
1. I have already answered the first part a bit however I see your point in my phrasing of not all Atheists being "bad". I suppose it was a bit of a generalization I really didn't mean it that way so I apologize of course.
2. Also, I am sorry for offending you. I guess I just don't understand how I could offend someone who doesn't believe in the said offense. Atheism is just a group of people standing together to say "hey, I believe in...absolutely nothing."...right? So why would my words of well wishes, that I speak to God (who in your mind doesn't exist), offend you?
3. Honestly I despise that about Christianity as well. Even the whole " love the sinner hate the sin" line really only goes so far. But as I said I chose to think of people as more than just men and women with halos or horns around their head. Were all the same flesh and blood here on this earth, anything beyond that is not I'm my control or interest. I didn't come here offering people salvation I came here offering peace and love.
4. I don't know if I agree, I think people are just as comfortable if not more comfortable knowing that they will never see their family again in a vast and empty nothingness after death than knowing they will have to face a judgment and an eternity without their loved ones in heaven, imo. And really the bible only talks about our creation in a very few specific verses in Genesis, other than that it doesn't really give a lot of answers to How?
5. I agree, religion stinks. God and seeking a relationship with God doesn't.
6. Yes, people have a right to their Honest opinion, and I know I can't change anyone myself. But it doesn't mean that said people should rally together and try to oppress others with their beliefs in any negative instance, Christianity, Kkk, or atheist. The only message that should be oppressing is one that triumphs over the bad with good. Thats all I'm trying to spread, one seed at a time. Again I will check back periodically, from the bottom of my heart I love every one of you and I wish you a happy prosperous life.
Adrian (Thursday, 10 January 2013 21:13)
Hi Sarah,
Thanks for the response, I'm glad you had a chance to read what I wrote. I'll try and keep this short.
RE 4: I think the majority of people like the idea of eternal life. Which is why many religions preach it. Mortality is a scary thing. The end is scary. But it's real. But if it wasn't? Well that'd pretty great. So I see why the desire for eternal life is so popular.
RE 2: It's not as offensive as it is saddening for me honestly. If you really think about it, it can be offensive because it's basically somebody feeling sorry for you. But I'm pretty easy-going. The reason it is saddening for me is probably similar to the same reason you are doing it. You are sad that the person you are praying for is living life the wrong way, thinking the wrong things, not accepting the truth. To me, when somebody prays for me it just emphasizes that they are stick in delusion where they believe in magic and all-powerful beings that can help this world. It bums me out, really. I wish people would just see the world for what it is. I wish you would see it for what it is, instead of what you want it to be. Your everyday experiences aren't lies. The world you see is the world we live in. There isn't some grand magical story behind our existence. We are here. Live life. Love life.
I'm a bit lazy so if you already answered this I apologize. But Sarah, why do you believe in a god? What has convinced you that a being like this exists without any evidence (that can't actually be attributed to something else)? If the bible didn't exist, would you be able to believe in god? Why does the bible's existence prove anything more than the odyssey or the illiad?
Just some food for thought.
Sarah (Wednesday, 16 January 2013 09:56)
Well Adrian while I don't believe anyone has asked that question I'm going to have to neglect answering that on this site. If you would like to further discuss that kind of material I have set up an email for you or any one else that has questions to be asked at [email protected].
But I would also like to address something you mentioned in your first post. When you brought up my question about "how atheists raise their children" and said that I was implying morals come from religion, not instinct or society, well doesn't this site kind of contradict that statement?
For anyone else, do atheists think they are different from any other organized religion (keyword: organized)? If so, how different? Also, why is it so important to make sure your children are sheltered from religion? Are you afraid that as a parent your influence isn't as predominant as it should be? I know if the shoe was on the other foot (which it often is now days) I could care less. I hope I'm not being too aggressive with my questions here. These are just some trends I have been seeing on this site that I'm really taken back by. Thank you all
Adrian (Wednesday, 16 January 2013 19:30)
Hola Sarah,
I cannot speak for others. And no atheist can speak for the rest, because we really don't have anything bonding us together. We don't have a set of rules, or morals, or ideals, or a philosophy. This site is an attempt to let people communicate their hardships and advice from the perspective as an atheist parent. It is nothing like a church. It is nothing like an organized religion. Imagine you lived when there was widespread slavery, and you were of the minority that thought slavery was incorrect. Wouldn't you like to have a place to meet with others like yourself? This site has a similar goal, but for atheist parents in a world where most think theism is correct. So no I don't believe this site contradicts that.
AND YES 99.99999% OF ATHEISTS WILL ASSERT THAT ATHEISM IS NOT A RELIGION AND NOTHING CLOSE TO AN ORGANIZED RELIGION. Because it is not. Atheism meaning without theism. That's like saying any negation is an assertion in the form of the thing that it is negating. So bald is a hair color, death is a type of life, walking is a type of motor transportation, and my favorite type of gun to use is a kick. I know you have heard this before, but calling atheism a religion or religious experience of any kind, to almost any atheist is like saying, "Oh, so you are part of that 'I don't believe unicorns exist' religion" or "You are one of the people in that 'Wizard non-believing' religion". Just because we don't believe in something (that has no evidence to support it) does not put us as anything close to the definition of religion. I have been an atheist all of my life. I never had other atheists to talk to grouping up, I never found groups, I never had atheist role models. Atheism is not my religion, it is my perspective on theism. It wasn't even until the past 2 or 3 years that I even have had the chance to talk to other atheists.
I don't think sheltering children from religion is the most intelligent course. That's similar to the religious sheltering their children from other viewpoints. I think what is important is not lying to your children, and providing your children with the knowledge of different religions and cultures. Tell your children "this is what Christians believe", "this is what muslims believe", "this is what hindus believe", "this is what mormons believe". Nothing is wrong with then asserting, "but there is no actual evidence that the supernatural exists, so this is what mom and dad think." The goal is not to indocrinate the kid. There is actually a period of time in a childs mental development (I think it is up until they are 5 or so?) when they will basically take anything their parents (or others) say as true. I personally think it's best to wait out that period and try to not talk extensively about religion, because honestly young kids don't have the mental capacity to distinguish reality and fantasy. I say wait until the kid is 9, 10, or 11. Slowly present them with the facts, and explain your viewpoint. The PROBLEM is that in many places kids will get bombarded with religion in public establishments, which leads kids to believe whatever anybody tells them. They bring that crap home, and it becomes an atheist parent's nightmare. Imagine a christian family whose child came home from school one day and started asserting that the greek gods were real because somebody at school has been telling them this. What if you couldn't change their mind because they simply believe the first thing that they heard? Just an UGH situation.
Anyways sorry for such a long response. And sorry, I'm not big on Email, so I won't be extending this conversation into Email. I hope others can answer your questions about children and religion as well, to give you more perspectives to think about.
Let me know if anything I said does not make sense.
Lance Gregorchuk (Saturday, 19 January 2013 19:50)
Sarah, I am certain you will probably not answer this question but here it goes anyway: What is it in this life, the only one you have, that you think is so bad, that you screwed up so much, that you require another one? If you focused on this life and said "sorry" to the people you hurt, said "I was wrong" to the people who you wronged, and talked out the problems you helped create, you would be an incredibly happy person without the need to ask a "god" for forgivness for things you did. You see, when atheists screw things up (and we do), we know the only way to fix them is to talk to the person we screwed it up with, not to feel better about it by asking some imaginary friend if it is OK what we did. You say, those of faith (you) use this "jesus forgiving" thing as an excuse for not actually asking those you hurt for forgivness, not owning up to the pain and suffering you personally have caused. Being an atheist is a great deal more then you think, we don't have an imaginary friend to "forgive us" for the shit we caused, we actually have to ask the person we hurt to forgive us, you don't do you? Damn it must be easy being a Christian! I think I am finally understanding why you wish that we convert, your life must be so much easier when you don't have to take any responsibility.
Aleks (Wednesday, 23 January 2013 02:33)
To everyone,
I myself am an Atheist, but honestly you guys are just ganging up on Sarah. We all believe in logic and in reason and hate the intolerance of Christians, but yet Sarah comes, apologizes and gets bombarded. I know that we are right in our beliefs, I really do. I do not agree with Christianity, and yet...isn't it the same for Christians? Remember that there are Christians that have DIED for their beliefs. Aggressive comments over the internet will not convert her. I understand that you honestly believe that it would be for her own good to be an Atheist, but that is not the right way to go my friends.
Adrian (Wednesday, 23 January 2013 22:17)
Aleks, I reject your analysis of me and Sarah's conversation and suggest you re-read it. While many people have been very forward, I haven't read anything that has been out of line. And if you remember, she is the one who came to this site. We didn't seek her out.
Personally I'm trying to have a respectful conversation with her, and I think she and I have achieved that for the most part. If Sarah does not want to come back then she has the choice to do so. I personally have little desire to deconvert her, and I doubt others do either. I would however love for her to understand where I am coming from and why.
Sarah (Sunday, 27 January 2013 20:52)
@Lance I think you are a little confused by the idea of forgiveness. If we offend someone, we apologize to them to their face. If we do something that is against our personal conviction (I.e drink, curse) we apologize to God. If someone wrongs us, we forgive them as Luke 17:4 says. Forgiveness to me (whether an apology is made or not)is for myself, not the other person. If i walk around with the offense that someone has made towards me weighing on my heart I am not fulfilled or truly happy and free. As Oprah has said forgiveness is not saying what the other person did is okay, it's accepting that the past can not be changed and moving on. That is what I believe and yes it does make being Christian a happier existence, but you don't have to be a Christian to follow that ideal.
Aleks I appreciate your insight, at least someone understood what I was trying to say when I came here.
Adrian I believe research states that a child has developed the majority of its personality by the time he /she is 6. Seeing as how children usually don't enter school until around this time I think the worry and doubt is for nothing. Besides so what if they did? Btw raising the argument that unicorns are the same as Christ is a little insulting, no one has died for a unicorn, or lived for a unicorn. They have not been believed in by billions of people over thousands of years. Why? According to you they have just as much proof of existing as God does. You can blame culture and society but as I said I was not raised how I am now, and God still proved itself to me. Also, if you put together a group of water molecules together, you call it a lake, not a bunch of H2O clusters. I'm sorry but that's what everyone assumes, whether you want to call yourself that or not. If you asked anyone to make a list of every single religion to date, atheism would be on that list. That's just how it is.
It may be unfortunate but I myself have faced this for believing in Christ. I don't like calling myself a Christian any more than my parents do but I believe in Christ and the Bible and that makes me a Christian even though I have different views from most Christians, I can't deny my labeling is wrong even though my stereotype is. Anyway I guess it's time for me to ask a question. What kind of evidence are you looking for to prove God exists? Scientific / personal experience or otherwise. What is the one thing that would make you question your belief or lack there of ;) ?
Adrian (Monday, 28 January 2013 08:36)
Hello again Sarah,
Regarding children: Only because I am thinking in hypotheticals and imagining a scenario where a child of mine came to firmly (religiously) believe in a deity. The actual belief of a supernatural being isn't the worst part actually, that I could more or less accept without much worry. But if my kid actually bought into a religion and believed all the stories and rituals that went along with the religion. Gosh, I would just feel so sad that my kid is being tricked. It's something I don't want. If my kid grew up and became Muslim or Christian then so be it. Just not as a child. Let them grow up first, and make their own decision.
I am sorry that it offends you when I compare god to unicorns. But, this being an atheist site, it's something that you will probably hear often. I understand not as many (or maybe even any) people believe in unicorns. But that is because it isn't beneficial to believe in a unicorn. There is no reason to put aside your rational mind and whole heartedly believe unicorns exist, because there is no evidence AND no benefit. That is not the case with god(s). There is no evidence, but there is great benefit:
-Believing in god/jesus promises you a best friend and/or a loving father. (subsiding your fears of loneliness or insignificance)
-Believing promises you eternal life (and it's good too, if you follow the rules!). (subsiding your fear of your own mortality)
-Believing puts you with the majority of the world. It's the norm.
-Believing answers all of your [UNKNOWN] questions. God becomes the cookie cutter answer to any mystery or unknown in the universe. Why are we here? What is our purpose? How did the universe begin? Well, god becomes your answer to just about anything you can imagine. Unfortunately, what is not accepted in many cases is: Maybe there isn't a reason, or maybe we will just never know.
-Believing gives you a constant in your life. A rock, a totem. It gives you something that you will always have, that never changes. It comforts us to not have change.
And much more I'm sure. There isn't much to gain by believing in unicorns, but believing in a god or gods is another story. So I understand why people believe. Humans are selfish creatures. Of course if something came along and promised you eternal life, eternal love, etc. then people are going to eat that up.
Adrian (Monday, 28 January 2013 08:37)
(continued)
Anyways, that was longer than I imagined, sorry about that. I am not sure what your water/lake thing was referring to, sorry. So I cannot respond to that.
I would agree that if a group of educated people were making a list of worldviews, where a religion would be considered a world view, they may include various religions, and also include atheism. But if a group of educated people was making a list of religions, then no they would not include atheism. To put atheism on would mean either redefining atheism, or redefining religion. So if this group of people was educated, and knew the definitions of both words, then I can't imagine them puting atheism on a list of religions.
So onto your question. What would make me think that there may be a god? Hmm, so many things. First, nothing that I could only experience internally (voices in my head/dreams/visions/un explainable sensations). And obviously nothing that anybody else can only experience internally. Our brains are amazing things, they can do alot. I guess the way to put it in the fewest words would be that I understand that humans have imaginations, and I understand that while most have an imagination that is more or less under their control. Some have an imagination that could control them. In other words, they don't realize that it is their imagination.
So first, what would make me think that there is supernatural phenomena? I would need to experience it first hand, or have a way of experiencing it first hand. So I would need a way to see a ghost or a demon or telekinesis or magic of some sort. And I would need to be able to verify that it is not a hoax. So that would get me to believe in the SUPERNATURAL.
To believe in an actual monotheism inspired omnipotent god? Well I would need to have this god manifest itself in the sky in a crowd, in a way only it could, and tell everybody that it was god. Or I would need to see overwhelming evidence that those who "went against god's will" were being punished in ways that could ONLY be explained by a god.
I guess those are just examples, but what I'm getting at is that I would need some objective evidence. I think it's one thing to believe in the supernatural and another thing to believe in a god. For me, believing in the supernatural would be more likely, as it would take less specific evidence than a god would need to present.
For the record, I'm not looking for any evidence. I fully accept and enjoy life. I went through all my angsty self-pitying stages as a teenager. That is when I would have benefited the most from a god, but even then I didn't come close to believing. I don't have a pushing desire to KNOW everything. I don't even know the specifics of evolution, but I really don't care either. I know I'm here now. I know I've experienced decades of life, and I have a pretty good idea of what life is. I know I'm successful. I know I'm happy. I know I make those around me happy. I know I've never given into any self destructive behaviors such as drinking alcohol or smoking cigarettes, or any other drugs. I have pride in my life, and I know what I want out of it. And that is what I am going to work towards. What I want out of it does not involve the unverifiable promises of religion. It involves happiness, and love.
I apologize for writing so much.
Mat (Tuesday, 05 February 2013 23:01)
Hi Everyone,
I have been reading Sarah and Adrian conversation. I am an atheist and was raised not to be, as most people, but not heavy handed about it, so I did get a chance to form my opinions. I have gone back and forth from believing to non-believing but it was mostly about confidence. I always differed to those who seemed smarter or more learned. I do have specific reasons for not believing anymore. But I was wondering, if it’s not rude to ask you Sarah, how you reconcile an omnipotent being writing through others and not directly from his own son? Whether free-will is necessary or not, I don't see the point of waiting several decades to write down the story. And why so many other stories originally written are not allowed in the fully sanctioned new testament? These are real questions not a point I am making. If you wish I will be happy to recount my attempts at belief. But now I use thousands of philosopher’s not just religious ones to explain to my kids with a scientific methodology we discuss at the dinner table. I personally think the good parts of religion can be and should use in Atheism, just as the Preacher uses a pulpit, or like a scientist uses the conference room to prove their hypothesis.
thanks!!
Sarah (Saturday, 09 February 2013 09:12)
@Adrian I can see you are very passionate about all of this. I could go back and forth with you forever on every one of our differences of opinion but in the end I think we both know they would still be just that.
I do see what you are saying as far as benefits to believing in God compared to unicorns. But what it comes down to is, Jesus was a real man with real ideals, not a mythical creature, and he deserves more respect than that. The water thing, I'm not really sure what I was getting at either lol, I think just saying, if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, its probably a duck- kind of metaphor. I was trying to say it with more tact. Anyway I can respect you have a successful happy life, and you do seem like a very genuine person. The world needs more logical minded people like you that bring passion to the everyday grind of life. But I think having said that you could understand why someone, maybe not you, maybe not anyone you know but someone could use God to get them through a tough situation in their life. Am I right?
As far as your proof, yeah that probably isn't going to happen. Now, I'm not claiming to have all the answers here but I don't think God is some white bearded man in the sky wiggling his fingers and messing with us, I think the idea of God is way beyond our comprehension right now, or maybe ever. I think that the bible was written that way to relate more to us in the physical world. But do you believe anything exists outside the physical realm we live in? I do and to me, logically,.. thinking otherwise is "crazy".
@Mat
That's a very good question, one I have thought about myself on numerous occasions. What I have found in my research is that the writing of the Bible did not happen by one person or one group of people. It was more of a collaboration over centuries by a group of Christians with one motive; to tell the accounts of Jesus Christ. Seeing as how it took centuries to write, that could be the reason why it took so long, but as far as why Jesus didn't write it? I don't have an answer other than maybe he just had better things to do? Most people were pretty skeptical of him back then, like most books people may not have realized the importance of the events happening in front of them until after the fact. As far as how they decided what to put in and what not to, I can't really remember all the processes these scriptures had to go through but I do know there were a series of steps and thousands of accounts to filter through to complete the series. For instance it had to be backed up by oral accounts or handwritten account then confirmed in relation to several other accounts, then backed up geographically etc. I believe there were up to 12 criteria that a book had to meet 100% before it was canonized in the bible. That being said its important to know the new testament states that no one should add or take away any scripture from it. So anything else that may have turned up since then was probably lacking in some crucial evidence for it to have not been put in the bible. I hope that helped, and I think its good to stay skeptical, I definitely don't think you should take anyone's word for it though, not even mine, go find out for yourself but try to find an unbiased pov. Otherwise the info you get may be corrupt.
I always laugh when I watch documentaries about religion because they are usually so extreme (example Bill Mahers Religulous vs. Ben Steins Expelled). It's hard to get a simple answer from anyone but follow your gut, do your research and pray on it, you will get an answer that suites you eventually.
And I am very interested in your accounts actually, I have yet to hear about any failed attempts at Christianity, you have my attention.
Jessibellol (Monday, 11 February 2013 02:42)
Keith
(Monday, 30 July 2012 09:22)
I find your comment fairly disappointing. This christian person was asking you how atheists raise their children with morals without religion. You could have educated her instead of berating her.
I shall explain.
I am a humanist, I do not believe in any of the thousands of possible gods or mystical/supernatural beings.
My son does the right thing consistently. He will say "thank you" when someone holds the door, he shares with others, donates old toys to charity and speaks kindly to others. We are kind to all - that includes all beliefs.
We use common sense to help support our moral base. We do the right thing because, well, it is right! (Humanism encourages you to do the right thing because it benefits all of humanity - but because it's gonna get you in good with god so you can chill out in heaven in the after life - you are encouraged to actively THINK about what you should do and WHY.)
We not only tolerate others - we attempt to understand them. We embrace the fact that everyone is different, we enjoy the fact that we live in a multicultural society.
We raise our children with morals, just as hopefully any person with any other belief system would.
It's as easy as common sense :)
Adrian (Monday, 11 February 2013 17:31)
Hello again Sarah,
I wouldn't say I'm passionate about this. Maybe I am, I don't know. I totally understand the pull of religion (especially after laying down the groundwork of indoctrination, but even without that). And why people feel they need or want it. Especially those in a tough situation. Although, I also feel that wanting something doesn't make it so. Neither does hoping for something. although, it'd be pretty cool if it did! And regarding Jesus, I never compared Jesus to a Unicorn. If he did exist, then he was a man, so I have no reason to compare him to a mythological creature such as a god. Although even if he did live, that doesn't mean the things that were written about him weren't exagerrated.
As for your physical realm question. In a nutshell, yes I think everything exists in the physical realm. I think this because I've never had experience of anything that is not in the physical realm (although how could I given that I exist in the physical realm?) I've read fictional stories and seen movies and shows about such things. But I've not once experienced something that would make me consider another way of existing than just physically. Nor have I heard of any convincing cases that don't sound like hoaxes, paranoia, or delusion.
And regarding your comment: "I've yet to see any failed attempts at Christianity." Shortly after coming to this site, I found two other very interesting sites. One dedicated to the members of the clergy who have lost their faith. Most did so after thoroughly studying the bible. In losing theif faith they risk losing everything, their family, friends, community acceptance. I've read their stories and it is so sad.
The other site is called ex-christian.net and it is primarily filled with those who were Christian for decades, but eventually could no longer find it in themselves to believe any longer. These people too have gone through much, and risked divorce and good family relations. Many of them are still in hiding, scared of what people will do (like family members not talking to you any more, spouses divorcing you) when they find out they are no longer Christian. I wouldn't try to speak to them if I were you, because unlike me they have thorough knowledge of the bible and were devout Christians for likely much longer than you. Many of them are angry at Christianity in general (note, I'm not saying angry at god). Many of them are bitter. And I've seen them rip Christian arguments to pieces.
bubbles (Monday, 18 February 2013 14:48)
@Sarah yep blame the atheist for others negative feelings towards us. if only we were nicer then others would view us differently huh? why do you think some of us dislike people like you? what do you mean by "I know not all atheists are bad people"? just most of us? your comments below> "I found surprising is the intolerance you have been embracing on your page", "if religious tolerance were to be embraced on your behalf I think your reputation as a whole would be a lot more positive." and "For a long time my family shunned me after I started following Christ" "They would become very angry if I even said the words church or God around them, which of course was very hard to manage." and last but not least "I know not all atheists are bad people" i cant stand people like you. you tried so hard to be nice and non judging at first and then showed your true colors ;) im so glad i have a husband that shares the same views about life that i do.
Sarah (Monday, 18 February 2013 22:10)
@Jessibellol I think I finally understand where you are coming from, where most "atheists" are coming from. I get atheism isn't a religion, it's just a way of life. It's not a lesson you need to teach children about its a reason to teach your children a multitude of things (am I correct?, please let me know). And I applaud you.
@Adrian, I think you are correct, most paranormal things can be explained by mental illness or a hoax but I think just because science hasn't figured out the "why" to some great phenomena doesn't mean that these things don't exist, or are magical. If that makes sense?
As far ex Christians I think I will take your word for it ha. I'm really not looking for a fight, I don't doubt some of them have very compelling stories and I'm not looking to convert anyone, but Mat asked my opinion and asked if I wanted to know so I told him I did. I'm not saying these people don't exist I have just not met one that has stories about a lack of evidence, as opposed to the many bad church or bad Christian stories. I have a few of those myself, my parents have even more.
@bubbles It was brought to my attention that these statements were being viewed as hateful but that's not what I intended, nonetheless if you are offended I apologize. I'm not trying to present myself as "holier than thou", I know it was stereotypical, I am sorry.
Adrian (Wednesday, 20 February 2013 19:30)
Yes, Bubbles, I already addressed that.
Sarah, I appreciate the talk we have had so far. As far as magical explanations for things we don't understand....I can't do it. I can't assume something that makes no sense to me (something I've never observed, experienced, or heard of) just because I don't know the answer to something. The thing is, I'm fine not knowing the answer. It doesn't bother me. I don't need to make a guess, or a hope at how it all really works. Knowing it works is good enough.
I apologize, but I do have to contest your categorization of atheism again though. It is not a way of life, nor is it a philosophy. Teaching your children right and wrong, and how to be moral, civil, decent, compassionate, and proud have nothing to do with atheism. It has to do with being good parents in today's world. Atheism is just a stance on theism. A stance saying either, "I don't believe in gods" or, "I believe there are no gods" (two different phrases with slightly different meanings).
You are correct in that it is not necessarilly a lesson to teach your children (though it can be, but it's better to let the kids figure it out one their own IMO). But, it isn't very much a reason to teach kids much of anything aside from skepticism, logic, and reasoning.
Now this will offend you (I apologize in advance), but as an atheist, I look at religion almost exactly how I look at drugs. *Note that while I think gods are not real, I acknowledge that religion is very real*. Take cigarettes for instance. My stance on cigarettes is that I don't think they are a good or correct way to live your life. I realize that they comfort people, and people in social circles who smoke are very accepting of others who smoke, and they have their other uses. But I don't think it's right. I think they are unhealthy for individuals and society as a whole, regardless of the limited benefits that they offer. Now just because I do not like cigarettes or believe in their use does not mean that my way of life or philosophy is "non-cigarettist". Nor does it mean that it will influence how I live, or how I raise my children. It does mean that I will teach my children the economic, social, and health risks associated with smoking. But it hardly counts as the foundation of my parenting. Similarly, atheism does not offer a foundation for parenting. It is just one stance on one subject. Not a philosophy or ideology.
The challenge of being an atheist parent, is similar to the challenge of raising a kid that doesn't grow up to be a smoker IMO.
Hopefully I communicated that well.
Erin (Monday, 11 March 2013 00:59)
Why do Christians come onto an atheist parenting website just to criticize and attempt to convert people? I don't waste my time telling Christians that their parenting style is completely abhorrent to me in their forums.
Jessica (Wednesday, 13 March 2013 23:36)
The wonders of Science and opening my eyes to the true beauty of the world is what has convinced me that there is no omnipresent being. We are finding more and more every day about what we are made of. Did you know that we can only see about five percent of the cosmos? Makes you feel pretty lucky that out of all the galaxies that we can see, WE are the ones who get to live. Amazing that in the beginning it was all star dust. Evolution! Love evolution. Wouldn't be here without natural selection either. We all have Neanderthal DNA in our blood, albeit a small amount. Some may find that disturbing but it just goes to show that we are more equal than we thought. If anyone prayed for me at this point, I would be very confused. I have two wonderful boys of four and six whom I raise by myself. I care about their education more than anything. I have decided to follow my new found passion for science and progressive technology in genetics. I am setting a WAY better example for my children then my own parents ever did. My kids are happier and healthier without fairy tales of hell fire and burning flesh than I was with those stories. It caused lots of anxiety and depression when I was their age. Long live science and reason!
Deborah Mitchell (Saturday, 01 June 2013 23:41)
I find it frustrating that people think we have a "Godless agenda" and that we are at war with Christianity. Just not true. I find the attacks by xtians hypocritical. We just want to live peacefully with others. We want God to be kept in the places of worship that all Americans, believers or not, subsidize.
John (Saturday, 15 June 2013 06:04)
I would just like to say that Adrian, you are probably the most rational, reasonable and charmingly eloquent person I've ever come across. The way you've handled a rather delicate subject with an, at times judgemental and conclusion-jumping, theist makes me rather jealous. I usually refrain from commenting on anything to do with religion or lack thereof as I fear my inability to verbalise my thoughts will instigate a feud. And, as an atheist, I often find this quite difficult considering some of the more extremist theists out there, as well as extremist atheists, of which there are some.
In short, I take my hate off to you sir. You are a scholar and a gentleman.
Rajma Singh (Saturday, 10 August 2013 08:49)
You dumb atheist bitches are gonna get reincarnated as retarded wheel-chair bound people who can't move and have to be spoon fed their entire life, like Steven Hawkings or someone like that. You can't transcend to a higher being if you don't trust in the Godhead.
Joiner (Friday, 16 August 2013 23:54)
I've always wanted to be part of a religion whose Godhead doesn't frown on me calling people bitches. I'm convinced, Rajma. Where do I sign up?
Candice (Saturday, 17 August 2013 00:23)
I am a nurse, from Nebr, now residing in the bible belt who is asked on a regular basis, " are you saved, have you found the lord, and or pray for us". As the professional I am not to pass my views onto my patients and can be reprimanded. I find this very frustrating and have battled with it for years. My love of science and evolution over 50yrs is what has formed my views of Christianity. Yes, frequently I wish to be in a less restrictive state but my husband and job are here.
Once a patient asked me if I was saved in the same breath asking If I smoked pot.
I do not judge others on their beliefs but feel I am cornered consistently.
I fell onto this site looking for ways to handle my problem and became engrossed in the comments. Yes, Adrian, you are truly a person with reasoning and tact. I could only wish for your ability to master the written word. If I could only have you speak in my ear when attempting to answer patients I might feel like I had explained myself but that is not a doable thing and in reality I am not able to speak my piece anyway.
What I would like to impress on those who feel it is necessary to win me over or snag me into their faith is that by asking me or putting me in a position that has forced me to not voice my opinion is exactly why I have chosen the beliefs I have (among other reasons).
I apologize if some of these statements aren't exactly clear in their meaning but I think you get the jest of my story.
I look forward to more information on this site.
Thanks
Janine (Wednesday, 11 September 2013 15:26)
I have enjoyed reading both Sarah and Adrian's comments.
Megan (Tuesday, 17 September 2013 23:06)
I cannot believe Sarah has dominated the majority of this page.
Sarah (Friday, 20 September 2013 08:06)
Just checking in on you guys and wanted to say you are in my prayers still. You are important to me and you are loved, every last one of you. Have a wonderful day.
Mike (Monday, 28 October 2013 21:36)
Father, forgive them. For they know not what they do.
Ron (Sunday, 01 December 2013 13:24)
Mike...Read the Bible from beginning to end. ..Have the Moral Courage, I dare you...Read about Lots daughters rape, Incest, read about boiling a child, read about smashing children into rocks, read about the murders of women and men and children by this biblical monster, read about beating your slaves senseless, oh and when you get to the end you will find your messiah with his BELOVED disciple and it is NOT a woman lol! Not saying Jesus is homosexual BUT, hold on this is the "Inerrant "word of god lol! ....and on and on as it gets worse and worse and more and more morally wicked........christians never want to read this stuff but it is in the bible....educate yourself and QUESTION!.............
Ron (Sunday, 01 December 2013 16:22)
Sarah and Mat:...... Read the bible from the BEGINNING to the END and DON'T stop in the middle........If you have faith then Read Read Read all the way through!......Take in each word and sentence and ask yourself questions as you go through......show your faith to yourselves....jesus wants you to read the bible ALL the way through, what are you waiting for...GO TO IT NOW!.....jesus tells me to to tell you to read and question like never before!
Abdullah (Saturday, 04 January 2014 13:40)
Well.. In my religion ( sorry I 'm not good in English ) we just to tell you about god. Up to you belive or not. You should find the truth... ( is there god or not ) To start please ask God to help you... ( even you not belived God but to find the truth please do this. ). Other thing.. I found many of you did not know what is GOD, What is religion and why we worship to God..
Surah Fussilat:
"Soon We will show them our signs in the (farthest) regions (of the earth), and in their own souls, until it becomes manifest to them that this is the Truth. Is it not enough that thy Lord doth witness all things?"
[Al-Quran 41:53]
Lance (Saturday, 04 January 2014 18:59)
Well thank you Abdullah for that Qu`ran quote 41:53 here are some more Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out... And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. Quran (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks." Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them". And my personal favorite: 4:34 "Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them."
Why would any NORMAL thinking person ask this kind of god for help?
Sarah (Thursday, 09 January 2014 18:49)
Ron: I have at least 3 times and my husband is a pastor. I'm fully aware of what is in the bible. Thank you for the advice though, it's some of the very advice my husband gives his congregation.
Jennifer (Thursday, 16 January 2014 22:28)
I identify as atheist. I come from a mother who died at age 33, when I was 10 years old, from complications of intravenous drug use, and a lying, womanizing, abusive father, both of whom considered themselves Christians. Nevertheless, I may have a bit of "hate mail" for you. I don't have very much experience with the atheist community. I guess, because of who I am, I assumed that most of us were morally stable, value driven people who just want to live our lives and be happy and helpful to others. After coming to this site to try and find ideas on how best to answer my children's questions about religion in a way that does not confirm the existence of any gods, while teaching respect for others, I have come to the conclusion that I was wrong in my assumptions about the atheist community as a whole. Sarah said she was surprised by the level of intolerance and hate that she has found here, and I wholeheartedly agree with her. Jason stated that atheists are offended by all religions because we are forced to tolerate religious intolerance. I find this to be incredibly unfair, because no matter who you are or what you believe in, you are always going to be subjected to intolerance, religious, and otherwise. Before coming here, I had hope that a belief in science, and a rejection of religion could break the current cycle of hate. I cannot begin to describe the sadness I feel at being proven wrong. Although I don't think anything could ever make me believe any of the creation myths, I don't think I want to raise my children in a community like this either. I'll stick with bible-thumping, hypocritical family members, and do my best to explain to my kids that they don't have to believe what other members of the family do in order to be good people. All I want is for my kids to be able to think for themselves, RESPECT OTHERS, and make informed decisions in their own lives. It seems to me that this site is set up to propagate almost as much hate as any religion. Kids brought up that way just don't get to be happy.
Lance Gregorchuk (Friday, 17 January 2014 15:57)
@ Jennifer: Thank you for your comments. It sounds like you are a great mom and you are up for a big challenge with or without religion. Good luck with teaching tolerance while at the same time calling people hypocritical and bible-thumping though, kids pick up on that. My kids (and I kow Jason's are as well) are very happy and also very tolerant of others, my kids are top grade students, (one is on the junior national team for springboard diving) they are respectful and make informed decisions based upon facts and science. I must say though I am sorry if you think you think you find hate here on this site, that was NEVER our intention (and I don't think there is much hate here from our side), but the fact remains when someone threatens me or my kids with a punishments of pain or suffering for just simply not believing in their god, I am going to push back because I don't like it when people threaten my kids!!!! What are you planning on doing when they threaten yours? Yes, I stand up to religious people thinking others need to be saved, because when you tolerate that, you must also tolerate the forced christianization of native americans and the Inuit peoples in the past, and the laws being past in Kenya and Uganda today which are based upon religion. Not standing up means you are sitting down, and just sitting on the sidelines watching Catholics kill Protestants and Sunni kill Shia, Uganda kill homosexuals and the JWs kill their own, is without a doubt the path of least resistance, but not one I teach my kids, but then again there is no Bible to parenting is there (pun intended)?
LG
Believer (Tuesday, 28 January 2014 23:10)
Lol @sarah : I wonder why their main argument for being atheist is that religion sparks wars and arguments and has since the dawn of time, but "in efforts to stop this" they create a new idea (atheism is a religion by the way, you guys are believing in a theory just like the rest of us), and this new idea has just been creating more arguments and probably will make a war one day. You guys ARE intolerant and even though you say that you are so knowledgable (I'm sure some of you are, but from what I've read on this site the majority of you know nothing about the us Christians) you know almost nothing about the Bible and Christian faith. We don't like it when bad things like murder, rape, and war happen, but we know that God will take care of all that and bring justice when it comes their time. For those of you that call us slaves... It's ironic how you call US slaves when our very bible teaches us that God gives us the ultimate freedom, and the lost are slaves to sin, like you all. I encourage you all to read a Bible, whether it's for your amusement or you want to use it against us, because the more you read it the more your eyes will be opened to the Truth. Please know that a true Christian will speak out of love, and that we are not here to judge you. I am not here to judge you. I pray for you lost people every day, and I can only hope that you will see the Truth someday. I used to not believe in God, but that was before I found perfect peace and hope through Jesus Christ. If any of you feel compelled to speak to me about God (please no people trying to argue with me) feel free to text me at 918-928-1215. Thank you all and I will be praying for all of you.
Lance Gregorchuk (Thursday, 30 January 2014 11:21)
So I have offered this guy to debate me on skype, let's see if he responds...
Believer (Friday, 31 January 2014 21:15)
Lance Gregorchuk: I guess you didn't see the part where I asked for people not to argue with me. I don't see what te point in arguing would be since you probably just want to make me change my mind, which isn't going to happen. Feel free to text me when you get the feeling that something is missing in your life, I can help you find it!
Lance Gregorchuk (Saturday, 01 February 2014 16:21)
@Believer: As Dale Carnagie said "The best way to get the best of an argument is to avoid it". Well done! You come to an atheist parents web site and spew your hate, I know you call it love, by telling us we are all going to hell and will burn and be punished, just because we don't believe in your imaginary friend and that you are praying for us? Yet the second I try and contact you and explain the other side of the coin, you walk away, I guess you were afraid I would change you because the fact is, if you were visiting an atheist parenting site, you were questioning your faith or maybe your parenting? That where atheism starts, with questions, so let's talk, I only have words and you have hell and god on your side right? Let's record it the debate so everyone can see what happens, you make your arguments and I will make mine and we will let the people make up their minds as to who is right. Are you afraid your arguments will not work, afraid I will show you you are wrong, afraid you will have to admit everything that guy preaching to you is a lie? What are you afraid of, they are just words.
To all my atheist friends out there... I do not expect this person to take me up on the debate, they like to talk the talk, but never walk the walk. Just like the JW or Mormon who I let sit down with me in my kitchen, they need about 10 minutes until they are begging to leave. Please take the chance to talk to these people, and ask questions, they hate questions...
Sarah (Thursday, 06 February 2014 06:59)
Lance, I would like a debate although I don't have skype. But I would have some guidelines for us to follow. No name calling, no fallacious statements, etc. I would also like it to be public.
Although as Believer said I don't think there is any way to change either of our minds. It would be nice to present the evidence and have the people that are observing decide who's world view is more appealing.
Lance Gregorchuk (Thursday, 06 February 2014 09:21)
@Sarah: I am a professional debater and as everyone knows if you throw mud you lose ground in a debate, so not to worry about the name calling etc. It will be public as we will put it on youtube and create a special page here called "Debate an Atheist". If you contact me by email contact(at)atheistparents.org I can go into more details as to the debate format. Thank you for taking me up my offer to your fellow christian. I look forward to your email, and I am certain those who come here regularly are looking forward to the debate..
LG
Lance Gregorchuk (Sunday, 09 February 2014 19:36)
@ Everyone @Sarah: Still no answer from Sarah!!!
Brent (Tuesday, 11 February 2014 10:56)
To anyone who might *pray* for me, an atheist: I'll *think* for you.
Gaby (Friday, 14 February 2014 08:11)
Hi everyone, a quick question: What can I say to my children when they ask me if there would be a heaven waiting for them when they die? I used to tell them that we are energy and when we die, we'll become part of the universe..we'll be rain, we'll be oceans, we'll be stars and the love we feel today, will remain forever and we will be together to the end of times..They are so afraid of death and a possible emptiness after that ,and I don´t know how to ease their mind and spirits..I need some help..a piece of advice please.. By the way, I'm from Argentina. Thank you all.
Lance Gregorchuk (Wednesday, 26 February 2014 07:42)
Gaby....great answer!
Dawn K (Thursday, 27 March 2014 17:16)
Sorry, Lance, but I don't see how it's possible to debate with Sarah when she has stipulated as a condition of said debate that "no fallacious statements" will be permitted. That pretty much rules out any argument she can present.
Nancy (Sunday, 15 June 2014 19:08)
As a non-believer/atheist who grew up as a JW and whose parents-in-law are apostolic (father-in-law an apostolic preacher.) It was always my intention to teaching my daughter to understand why people believe in gods, but that choice was taken away from me when she was 6 when her best friend told her she was going to be killed by the Devil for not going to church. I had to start very early, FIXING THE DAMAGE this little boy did first. It's almost impossible to teach religion in a non-confrontational, "fair" way when christians keep saying outrageous crazy things to my daughter and when they ignore the "bad" parts (like Hell and why God allows suffering) and only talk about the "good" parts (until you are unmoved, then out come the threats). I just wish they knew how hard they make it when they just repeat the regular sound bites they are taught without thought as to how they sound. It does feel like she is being attacked all the time and it makes me very mad. I think religious people need to ignore the scripture that tells them to ministry to others, or at least to understand that it's offensive to do so. I have never been approached by a religious person wanting to tell me about their fantastic god who didn't end up being insulting, condescending or threatening. I was accused once of trying to deconvert THEM! On MY doorstep! I know Christians use my offense as proof that they are with a loving god. Because they are able to "love" intolerant persons like myself is proof that they are right. My retort to that is if you first offend someone, you are only forgiving us for being offended by you, the offender. And when the atheist is not offended because they have accepted your behavior as ignorant or misguided, they are actually the bigger person for not having first allowed you to offend them. I'm working on this second part, I'll keep at it.
John B (Thursday, 25 September 2014 02:27)
I came to this website because I am soon to be the father of two girls. My significant other and I are expecting a second baby in January 2015 in addition to our 1 1/2 year old girl. I visited the site because I care about their education I wanted to hear how other non religious parents are attempting to raise children.
I was hoping to find supportive information and advise from like minded individuals. However, I was disappointed at the antagonistic title of the blog "For all of you who wish us an eternity of burning in hell or have some sort of threat, place your comments below." I was further disappointed when fellow atheists belittled and demeaned the beliefs of Sarah, a Christian, instead of using rational arguments, reason and compassion with her. Its easy to talk crap when you hide behind your little computer screen. This is the definition of cowardly behavior.
Although I agree with what the atheists said. I think they presented their information and arguments with out tact. Although I think Christianity is comparable to a mafia at times, I do not think all Christians are tyrants, ignorant, stupid or childish. I think Christians are diverse humans like the rest of us. In this blog Sarah, the Christian, although I disagree with her beliefs, demonstrated much more tact, sincerity, and humanity than most of the annoying and obnoxious atheist bloggers. She demonstrated all of what is good about Christians and Christianity. Because almost nothing is completely good or evil. Even religions!!
Although life is very joyous, life can also be scary and difficult at times. All people undergo suffering, discomfort, and death at some point in their life. It is natural for people to want control over the uncontrollable. People have always tried to influence the deities with prayer during catastrophes like times of drought, disease or turmoil. Cultures consistently create gods and goddesses to explain the unpredictable world they live in. I strongly appose the homophobia, sexist views and absolutism preached by the bible and Jesus. However I respect Christian's loving kidness nature, good semeratism, turning the other cheek, lessons of forgiveness, lifestyle choices and strong family values. However I don't think as an atheist I need an all powerful god imposing these rules on me. I do not think human nature is inherently evil or sinful and on and on . . . .
In conclusion( to rap up this rant of mine), when I think about this, I think both Atheists and Christians have a lot to learn from each other. However, insulting, or feeling superior or righteous is not the way to improve knowledge of life and the world we all desire to know about (but still in 2014 collectively know very little of all their is to know). I think asking questions, and honestly trying to answer them is one way of looking at this. Another is opening a respectful dialogue between people of different points of view in a nonjudgmental and open way. I grew up in an overwhelmingly conservative Christian neighborhood with megachurches and evangelicals strongly imposing their views on every aspect of our town. I observed how my younger brother and best friend became quickly indoctrinated by this powerful group. It is very disappointing to see atheists acting in this very same way to promote their beliefs of science and rationality. Something that is true or right never needs to be shoved down peoples throats.
ASN (Sunday, 09 November 2014 05:12)
It is so sad to think that your children grow up with no hope of anything past this world. They are made to believe that this world is all they get. They die; whether it be young or old, that's all they get. No hopes of anything better despite if they are born with a disability or in poverty; that's all they get. No hopes of anything better despite if they are born into an abusive situation or left to die in the streets; that's all they get. What a frightening future for them to know this world is all they get. Jesus is our hope and I promise you that he has something much better than this world could ever offer. Give him a chance, what will it hurt? This old world is falling a part; look around. Give it a try? What will it hurt. Your not going to lose out on anything.
KBennett (Monday, 10 November 2014 19:44)
I stumbled upon this website because my 12 year old was asking lots of questions about other people's beliefs. I want my children to have a knowledge of all beliefs and religions. I am a Christian, by the way. I do not have any close friends that are atheists. I have been reading through these responses and I honestly had no idea that atheists were so angry about the Bible. Or at Christians in general. I just want to speak for all of the Christians in my life. . . we are not all crazy fanatical hate mongers. . . I have truly never had a negative thought about an atheist or anyone of another religion, maybe confusion or lack of knowledge, but never hate or anger. I'm sorry that my religion offends you all so much. I think if you met me, and had no idea that I was a Christian, you would probably like me. And I would hope that when you found out a was a Christian, nothing would change.
Lance (Tuesday, 11 November 2014 21:13)
Ohhhh where to begin? Let’s start with KBennett first: You are ALL crazy fanatical hate mongers, or you are not a Christian! As someone who does not believe in your magic, what will be my punishment when I die according to your religion and your book? YOU may not think you are fanatical, but you support a tyranny by supporting their ideology! What is my punishment for non-belief according to your magic book again? If you lived in North Korea you may say privately that you don’t support the Camps but publically support the leader then it makes you just as much to blame. Your religion is based upon hate and anger, intolerance, misogyny and genocide, calling yourself a “nice” Christian for me is like calling yourself a “nice” Nazi. Yes there were a few Nazi’s who turned a blind eye and even some Nazi’s who actually were against the regime, but still went to meetings and hung out with their friends with the same “toned down” Nazi opinion…THEY WERE STILL NAZIS!!!! I am sorry but yes, your bible offends me, and anyone who thinks they can just pick and choose the good parts and be proud to call themselves a Christian is living on the wrong side of history. You wear the uniform but think you are different? What are your opinions on homosexuality? Stem Cell Research? Abortion? And what are the views of your religion? Don’t pretend to be something you are not, and that my friend is a bigot, don’t tell me you sing the songs, say the prayers, drink the cool-aid, but don’t support the crazy ones. Yet, let’s clear one thing up, I have every right to be to be angry at you and your magic and make believe world where your leaders threaten me with eternal suffering if I don’t accept something…you live in North Korea my friend, I think it is time for you to plan your escape, you seem like a reasonable person…and when you get to the other side trust me, you become like the guy who quit smoking 5 years ago and doesn’t envy those he sees smoking he pities them, and their habit disgusts him!
Now ASN: My children have hope, they hope that they can make this world a better place and are actually doing something about it. They separate their garbage, recycle, they donate old toys which they don’t play with every year charity, they chose to make this world, the one they live in, a better place for their kids and grandkids. They understand that your religious leaders promise you everything in the next life as long as you do what that leader wants you to do in this one. My kids want to make good use of this life and help as many people as they can. Your religion teaches kids that they are born sick, how messed up is that? My kids are trying to change things and as your kids are praying my kids are doing something and do you know what the irony is? Your kids will only benefit from the work of my kids, my kids will never profit from that what your kids are doing. Cheezus is your hope? My hope is my kids…and yours…actually stop thinking about a next life which doesn’t exist and concentrate on this one, this one planet we have, this one life we have. My kids are environmentalists, and little scientists, and I am so proud to be their father, your kids will one day understand that you live in a made-up fantasy world based on nothing. I find that sad.
John B: If you feel that you need to criticize, then why don’t you try adding to the content? It is easy to say what others are doing wrong including us atheists, but try telling Sarah that she is crazy because she believes in Santa Claus (replace with cheezus, gawd, and that ghost) in a nice way. You can’t do it! Seriously what does an atheist have to learn from a Christian or a Muslim? Tolerance? That we should all just try to get along? That we are born sick? That go hears our prayers but the not that African child’s? I think it is time that atheists stop tolerating “their” intolerance.
Look everyone, I am not angry, I am not an angry person, I love my life, my kids and my wife, I am not frustrated at my life, I really like my life actually and yes I will admit, I do think that if you are a grown up, and you believe in an imaginary friend… that is a bit strange. Most atheists I would not refer to as atheists but more like “Idontgiveashitists”. My brand of atheists is anti-theism, I am against religion…all religions, they do no good, and anyone who wants to indoctrinate their children into such nonsense I think needs to take a step back, examine the evidence, read the bible in its entirety from cover to cover, together with their children, and then explain why they believe genocide, misogamy, thought crimes (google the word covet), rape, incest, slavery and 100 other really messed up things the Christian book of craziness claims should be something mankind could find useful. I have dedicated my life to stopping religion, if I lived in Nazi Germany in the 30’s I would have spent my life fighting them, now ask yourself a question, would you have?
Christy (Monday, 01 December 2014 23:18)
Being an atheist is OK. Being a Christian is OK. Being a Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, or Pastafarian is OK. Being hateful towards other is not OK. Although not a Christian currently, I was raised in a church that taught us to critically evaluate the Christian bible and take it in context, not as the literal word of the "God" but inspired through humans and llikely tainted by humanity.
Any time we try to look to one work or person for moral fortitude, we can find flaws.
I have long believed myself an atheist. My husband is probably the kind of atheist such as those who are quite hurt here. I too find it ridicuous that people say that are "blessed by God" when.. what, others are not? What makes you so special? But taken in context they may mean that the belief in a God gives them strength to get through rough times.
This is not something that makes sense to be, but it's arrogant to assume that others are less than you because they believe in a god, just as it's arrogant for others to think there is something wrong with those who don't.
One person who's opinion is just a drop in the ocean (Sunday, 21 December 2014 20:44)
I don't believe in Fidem Turbare, the non-existent atheist goddess, even though I want to. The problem is that I have no proof that she exists, and she doesn't want anyone to worship her, even though her sharp intellect and mysterious beauty both inspire and motivate me.
Phil (Tuesday, 23 December 2014 09:35)
Hi all. Typing on a phone so will aim to keep it brief for now.
So, me:
I was brought up Christian and my mother is now a minister. I spent the first 17 or so years of my life strongly and seriously trying to be a 'good' Christian, but also an active one - I studied the bible and commentaries of various kinds, went to church, prayer meetings, study groups, conferences and such, read a lot of books about aspects of Christianity written from the Christian perspective.
I feel now that I never truly 'believed', but that may be false memory. Either way, I really did commit to it - seriously, if God had a shot at convincing anyone, it was me! I mention this because above, Sarah states "I have yet to hear about any failed attempts at Christianity", and I think others within the church (and maybe particularly in the US) might also not have done. So I'm one, Sarah - feel free to ask questions and I will answer in all good faith (if you'll pardon the expression).
Incidentally, I think the book which finally allowed me to let go of my 'faith' was called 'The Case For Christ', written by a Christian lawyer aiming to sum up the arguments for believing in Jesus and present them as essentially watertight. Even aged 18ish (sorry, don't quite remember how old I was) I was of the view that if that's the best they've got, the reasoning is very thin indeed. Nothing I've read or heard since (which is a lot) comes close to overturning that, which is not to say that nothing ever could.
So. For me atheism is not a complete set of opinions or beliefs, and certainly not a religion, although when atheists seem to make statements on behalf of all of 'us' it can take on the appearance of a cult!
*All atheism is to me is the absence of belief in a deity - that's it.*
(I therefore understand why people who believe in other superstitions such as a benevolent universe can define themselves as atheist, and that's fine by me.)
The more important principle for me is one of scepticism: simply taking the default position of not believing something until it is shown to be true - not anecdotally through someone's conviction or experience (which I think we'll all agree can sometimes be subject to error) but objectively.
We can get into a more in-depth discussion about the nature of proof if it would be interesting particularly to the non-atheists here, but no need to make this post even longer! Suffice to say that even when you suspect something might exist, you must assume it doesn't until you have compelling evidence that it does. The assumption of existence and of non-existence are not equally reasonable.
Next thing to say is that although I recognise that the bible and other holy books contain some good and some bad examples of how to live, neither of these are a reason to believe or to not. If God were the nastiest and most sadistic you can imagine, if I had evidence for His existence then His nature wouldn't make that evidence any more or less compelling - although I do admit that it would make the pill of theism a little harder to swallow!
I mention this because it may be useful to repudiate in advance the idea that I don't believe in a deity because I don't think He's nice, or that showing me how nice a religion is would be a reason for me (or anyone) to believe in it. The two questions are entirely separate, which I hope is clear.
Briefly, the principle of scepticism as I understand it is that I'll believe anything, however ridiculous, as long as there is good evidence for it - and nothing however plausible, obvious or seductive, without. Therefore if you can demonstrate to me a valid reason to believe in any god, or other form of spirituality (or alternative medicine, etc) then I MUST be prepared to change my mind - this is vital, otherwise my position is based on just as little as I consider a theist's to be.
I suppose it's also worth pointing out that the fact that I have never experienced anything supernatural is not a reason to not believe in it, any more than an experience is enough to believe. This is the principle I try to apply to everything in life, and I think it allows a true humility and joy, as well as enormous satisfaction in asking and properly answering big questions, rather than taking a guess (which is what faith is) or over-simplifying an incredibly complex universe. There is a massive beauty inherent in the acceptance of reality.
Phil (Tuesday, 23 December 2014 09:38)
Part 2 (yeah, sorry...)
@Sarah and others who consider themselves Christian, Muslim or any other form of believer:
Thank you for engaging with us!
I'm truly sorry that some people have spoken down to you on this page, either in perception or in fact. I can see they have, and it's not good enough.
I can't remember which politician (I fear it may have been Blair) said "it's not enough to be whiter than white - we have to be seen to be whiter than white", well that's my feeling on respect when it comes to discussion with people of faith - it's not enough to be respectful within the boundaries of our own cultural understanding, we must be sure to speak respectfully in the understanding of those we're speaking to, otherwise we're really just shutting down the debate (which for some may be the point of this page, but that would be kind of sad).
That said, although I respect you (you're a person, which is enough in itself, but double respect for throwing yourself into this bear-pit!) I don't feel any obligation to respect your beliefs, nor do I wish you to respect mine, although I demand that you respect me as a person.
Ideas and beliefs should be tested - to destruction if possible. If they can be questioned and debated and criticised and come through still standing then they may be correct, but we won't know whether they're true until we test them.
Finally (for now), please keep talking to us, keep asking questions of 'us' and 'our' ways of thinking, but please be open-minded enough to challenge yours at least as much. I think these questions are vital, and it makes me genuinely sad to think that you hold what I consider to be false hope, that your garden is not beautiful enough without you needing to believe there are fairies at the bottom of it, or that you are basing your understanding of the world around you on falsities - so if you accuse me of wanting you to change your views, you're quite right. That's because I think they're incorrect and that you're important enough to have them challenged. Thus, disagreeing with you coherently but passionately is the most caring, friendly, and respectful way for me to behave, in my view.
Equally interesting, valid and a touch scary is the thought of what I might have got wrong - whether I've missed something or not been rigorous enough in my thinking. So please question and challenge me too and I commit to be open-minded (just not so open-minded that my brain falls out).
For us to say 'well I think he's wrong, but that's ok' either because we don't care about the other person's mind or because we don't think they're capable of understanding is either selfish, patronising, or both. Some of the loveliest and most intelligent people I know (my mother and partner being two of them) are believers in one way of another, so rest assured that I don't think you're an idiot just for disagreeing with me. Oh, and I won't have all the answers - and that's kind of the point!
Stick around. Looking forward to discussing. And sorry this turned into an essay after all.
Phil (Thursday, 25 December 2014 08:23)
Happy Christmas everyone!
Carmen (Sunday, 28 December 2014 02:24)
I just stumbled upon this site today, and while I am quite far (very far) away from having children, I recently was conflicted about how I would raise my future children. It's so upsetting to live in a country where atheists are viewed as cruel, hateful "devil worshippers." Of course, it's also quite easy to blend into society as an atheist. Most people my age were raised going to church, even if they weren't from a particularly "religious" family. (I did not, my mom definitely believes but we never discussed religion outside of what time we were waking up to attend church Sunday morning. My favorite grew up Catholic and pretty much lost all respect for organized religion and I suspect he may be a closeted atheist.) Because I grew up in a Southern, conservative area going to church every week, no one ever questioned my beliefs. In fact, I still go to church every Sunday because I have a job as a section leader (I'm a classically trained singer). Due to this, I can basically pick an choose who knows my beliefs. It's quite easy to say "I have to sing at church Sunday" without anyone suspecting a thing and quite another to say "I'm an atheist but I have a job where I am paid to sing at a church." Of course all my friends know but I leave my family out of it since we never discuss religion anyway. Recently, my boyfriend and I talked about hypothetical wedding ceremonies (which is also in the VERY distant future). The conversation started around the fact that it is more and more common for people to have secular weddings, which of course, we would want. My boyfriend's father is a pastor so it would potentially be a problem explaining to him we do not want clergy officiating our wedding (we have another atheist friend we would ask) but it would not be a big deal over all. When you are young religious people always chalk it up to "oh they are 20-somethings when they settle down they'll start going to church again" and yada yada yada. But what happens when we have children and don't get them baptized? I guess my question isn't what happens, more how are people dealing with this? Until this point in my life I happily lived as an atheist allowing those I felt comfortable around knowing. I'm by no means ashamed, especially now living in a super liberal, hippie town (which is awesome). It's just that I don't enjoy confrontation nor do I enjoy arguing with people who are inherently wrong and don't believe it. It's a waste of my time and energy to argue with a bunch of backward thinking right wing conservatives who don't believe in global warming. How do I explain I am a moral, decent, educated person raising moral, decent, educated children? How are your kids affected? Do Christian parents un-invite your children to playdates? Do they treat your children differently? And worst of all do they try to convert your children?
Rochelle (Saturday, 21 February 2015 20:56)
I am new to this site. I am a Canadian with a 7 year old daughter having difficulties with some classmates who tell her she is going to hell if she doesnt believe in God. My husband and I are trying to teach her to respect other peoples beliefs and to try to avoid conversations regarding religion because it is a personal thing and not appropriate at school. The teachers have been very supportive and speak to each individual child when she is alerted to the problem, but it makes me angry that kids at such a young age are saying things like that to her. Last year she had kids telling the teacher on her as if she was saying something bad when she would say she didnt believe in god. Thank goodness the teacher set them straight. It is a constant struggle though and I wish I could protect her. We are going to order her a few books, but I wish there was more of a community to support her. Thank you for this website, it offers us struggling parents a place to safely share our experiences and ideas.
Joshua Pryce (Thursday, 11 June 2015 13:40)
god is not a magician. if he was people who dont deserve to be blessed would get blessed. it depends on faith and what you choose to do with it. use it well and follow gods rules and jesus and youll be alright.
Solomon (Thursday, 18 June 2015 18:12)
The Judeo-Christian God may not have a ton of proof, but the concept of a Creator is possibly the only option when discussing the creation of the Universe. (And I'm not talking 'God of the Gaps' either.) Read "I Don't have Enough Faith to be an Athiest" by Frank Turek and Norman Geisler. Rather than atheist books whose only arguments against God seem to be complaints about earthly religions, this book will give you insight into multiple convincing scientific facts that should shake any atheist's lack of faith.
Tu Es Morionem (Wednesday, 28 October 2015 00:38)
This site was set up to show how educated and open-minded atheists are in contrast to fundie cunts, cretards and and religious people. I briefly perused the comments, and....
I find decent comments on one end and intellectual snobbery + condescension on the other.
Raman (Monday, 18 January 2016)
The flying spaghetti monster is the one true God. Feel the power of his balls because I have been touched by his noodley appendage!
Will (Wednesday, 09 March 2016 21:40)
This thread escalated quickly with #6 being from a believer and #7 a harsh (and mostly justified) rebuttal. Just tell the damn kids to be curious and to ask questions about anything that doesn't seem to make sense. That should be sufficient to keep them from turning into little trolls.
Grant (Friday, 06 May 2016 22:39)
Wow. So I'm a definite atheist, but I'm also a decent person. Was expecting to see a lot of Christian Anti-Atheist rants on this comment page. Instead, I'm overwhelmed by how hostile (and really, pretty stupid) many of my fellow Atheists are towards people of faith (cough *Keith* cough).
As I tell my Atheist friends who criticize religion for being based on fantasy - we ALL believe things we can't prove exist. In fact, it's a prerequisite for civilization. Human Rights, for example.
The Theist-Atheist debate needs a dose of humility.
Eric (Saturday, 18 June 2016 10:40)
An atheist friend of mine said it is impossible for an atheist to teach anti-theism to a child. My opinion was it is just as possible to teach non-belief as it is possible to teach belief.
Can a child be indoctrinated into atheism? Please be honest.
Rebecca (Wednesday, 22 June 2016 23:10)
My parents are Athiests, so I grew up Athiest. While I may not believe in God or any other diety, I don't believe we should get rid of religion, but offer people the choice of religion. Many people grow up surrounded by all kinds of religion with different levels of faith, but still become Athiest. My dad grew up Christian and is now Athiest. My mom had the choice at a young age and she became Athiest. So I didn't grow up around faith- driven people, and I'm glad. Because I don't have to lie or pretend to be something. If I want to believe I God, I can. If I don't, I don't have to. Lets just say, I'm lucky.
Rebel Jay Fighter (Wednesday, 22 June 2016 23:53)
I'm an Athiest, but not the kind that denounce religion as something horrible. I believe that every person who choses faith has their own opinion on their religion. Other Athiests and Thiests act like little children who just like their toy. We shouldn't get rid of religion. We shouldn't denounce a whole religion, but just maybe certain parts of it. It be cruel otherwise. Whether your a person if faith or not, just listen and accept the parts of religion you like and argue about the parts you disagree with. In the end, you're your own person and have your own thoughts. You choose, you decide. That's what I'm here to say. Remember, your choice whether or not you want to follow this message.
Sammy (Monday, 04 July 2016 09:36)
Hello,
I am not an Atheist per se. I think of myself more as a secular humanist first and then a feminist. But I grew up as a white, midwestern blonde girl. Episcopalian is what we did.
Fast forward 20+ years and my kids are heading to a summer camp next week. Church related, not even the denomination I'd previously attended. I know they will have a great time, but also that I have just dunked my free thinking kids into the water.
The 1st thing on the supply list was a bible. eep!
So, I bought each of them a catholic bible. Told them to dog-ear the pages, highlight and write in it. I mean, I see no point in hiding a big cultural item from them. Let them have the info, the tools, etc and fight it out for themselves. They are smart and I am cynical enough that they can draw their own conclusions.
I do want them to have the dexterity with the language and notations because literature and writing is based on a metric that is in existance there already. I feel like they'd be at an academic disadvantage if I choose to shelter them from it in entirety.
But it still makes me nervous.
Anyone else feel this way or have this experience?
Mariel (Tuesday, 20 September 2016 17:36)
I am starting this type of research as a way to support my son as he goes through school. I am an Atheist and will raise him without God. This web site offers very little. I will not teach my son to make fun of other kids b/c they believe in God. Unicorn in the flying fridge? Really? That's what you come up with? I won't be using this site for any guidance. Grow-up and please offer mature solutions for parents seeking guidance.
Sarah (Tuesday, 27 December 2016 06:35)
Wow, where does the time go? Two almost three years since I've visited. Of course there is no way to prove that but I guess you'll just have to trust me. I've come to tell you all that I was wrong and I'm now an atheist.
Just kidding! Still a Christian. Still sending nothing but my love your way. Hope you all have a great 2017!!
Eleni (Thursday, 26 January 2017 06:18)
I am a Christian and some of the things I'm seeing here are quite intolerant and extremely offensive for those of you athiests who somehow despite what you say about intolerance, don't seem to think so. It's hypocritical and makes me mourn the future if this is what our world is to become. Also I would like to point out, although Sarah did a great job of this, that the founding doctrines of Christianity preach love and acceptance above all else (Golden rule). I lament that in the past and today's world this message has been perverted by misguided individuals, but would like to note that that's a fault made by humans in practice/interpretation of the faith and not in the intrinsic nature of the faith itself. I also find that this site is making me lose faith in people in general. Here you all are trying to tell me that you're tolerant and you're clearly not. There were like 2 not mean athiests here. The kindest comments on this site have been from the few Christians that stumbled upon it. I don't want to believe in stereotypes but legit what am I supposed to think when I see this?
Alyssa T. (Monday, 20 March 2017 06:41)
Hello, my name is Alyssa. I have read all these comments through and through and I would like to address what I think is the main thing many religious people, mainly Christians, do not understand about why atheists have such a problem with you. We do not care about any gods at all, not just yours, and for very good reasons. You see, God just isn't real. He is not, and if he was, then under every circumstance he would be an awful terrible person. If your God is real, then that means that he gives children bone cancer, he starves people, he allows men to rape women and good people to die painful deaths that no one deserves. He did nothing about the Holocaust, or slavery, or kindergarteners in school shootings. He doesn't care about that old woman who was held at gunpoint and robbed in the middle of the night. He doesn't give a damn about hurricane Katrina or the 2008 house market collapse that unemployed 8 million people and made 6 million homeless. You love a God who makes bets with the devil over how much he can take away from you to see if you still believe in him. You think it's okay to worship a being that treats women as property and gives the men that rape them claim of their bodies if they were virgins. If you are a Christian then that means you believe in a being who flooded the Earth and killed everyone on it except less than a dozen people, a being who says you must worship him every day in every way and give up all of yourself to him or burn in hell... Forever. You love a god who didn't put sexual abuse in the 10 commandments but condemns you to a burning pit if you say his name with the wrong tone of voice?! THAT is why we have a problem with religion! THAT is why we don't like your God! THAT is why if I have a son he will NEVER be taught that your sick, evil, egomaniacal God is real, and if I have a daughter she will NEVER be told to submit to her father, husband, God, etc. because she is worth less than a man. Your so-called God can go to Hell himself if it was real, and if you think I would want to go to a heaven with that nutcase, you've got to be joking. I think I'd rather be in your imaginary hell with the intelligent people, and we could laugh at you stupid assholes with the air conditioners they made. Put that it your pipe!
Paul (Tuesday, 01 January 2019 03:43)
How exactly are the claims of miracles in the Bible evidence for the non-existence of God? What is the logical argument and does it stand up?
I imagine some arguments would be as follows:
1. Miracles are impossible because they violate the laws of nature. The Bible claims that God performed miracles but miracles are impossible, therefore, God does not exist.
2. Our inability to detect miracles or prompt God to perform them in the present age suggests that miracles do not occur and the miracles attributed to God in the past did not happen so God does not exist.
In relation to 1, I'd say that it is really just defining God out of existence and not a true argument. Humans can't fly by flapping their forelimbs but that doesn't necessarily mean that it is impossible for non-human creatures to fly. Some things that are impossible for humans could conceivably be possible for a god.
In relation to 2, I'd say that the Bible claims that God performed a number of miracles on particular occasions in the past for specific purposes. It doesn't claim that God regularly performs miracles or that humans can induce God to perform miracles. Natural phenomena can be tested because they have no will but beings with a will can't be tested because they can choose if and when they do things.
Eric (Thursday, 24 October 2019 15:56)
I was reading your response to the Ten Commandments. Very Clever Indeed. Some of your points cut to the quick. One really stuck out to me. Adultery. You cited Judges 21:10-24. This is an absolutely gut-wrenching account of unspeakable atrocity.
I want you to understand, because tone is often lost in written responses that I sincerely desire to have a conversation - not to wish you to hell.
Have you read Judges 21:25? It's the last sentence in the entire book. It says that "In those days there was no king in Israel; everyone did whatever seemed right to him." In other words the horrific acts that were described were not ordained by God. One of the beautiful things about the Bible that separates it from most other historical works from antiquity is that it does not shy away from exposing the failures and even sins of it's characters - even it's main characters. It is forthright - not hiding from the truth. What happened in Judges 21 is horrible, not God honoring and not presented as so. But, it happened and so it was told.
I would love to hear your thoughts on this particular subject. Best Regards!